<div dir="ltr"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Hi Adrian,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Let me try this.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font face="Times New Roman, serif"><span style="font-size:12pt">I claim all of the following are</span><span style="font-size:12pt"> facts:</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font face="Times New Roman, serif"><span style="font-size:12pt">1. In order to define a word like “red”,
like your mother</span><span style="font-size:12pt"> did, you need to point to something and say: “That
is red”.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">2. Physical Knowledge of red is only
arbitrarily related to red as demonstrated by the facts portrayed in <a href="https://canonizer.com/videos/consciousness/" style="color:blue">this video</a>. In other words, any brain could arbitrarily
use different sets of physics, like your greenness, to represent red with.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">3.
Since there are two different sets of physics here, we need two
different words to adequately model all of these physical facts. For example, red for something that reflects
or emits red light. Redness as the
quality of the of your knowledge of red.
(My redness could be like your greenness.)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">4.
If we don’t use two words, we can’t model the arbitrary relationship (i.e.
our models and language are qualia blind.)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">4.
We also need a different label for physical properties like color. For example, colorness is the subjective quality
of physics we can directly experience in our brain. Let’s call this colorness.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">5.
The redness quality we subjective experience has causal properties; in
that it causes us to say: “That is red.”</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">6.
It is a hypothetical possibility that our descriptions of the causal
properties of glutamate, as it reacts in a synapse, are the same physical properties
we directly experience as redness, which causes us to say: That is red.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">7.
In that case the color of glutamate would be “white” and the colorness
of glutamate would be “redness”.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">8.
In other words, you would define both the words glutamate and redness,
by pointing to a pile of glutamate.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span id="gmail-_x0000_t75">
</span><span id="gmail-Picture_x0020_2" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_ndIC9sILwB28_LquUV7kN2ajzvMZFRRfPfiq5S2lg9DZER9UW46EXCSp24EsVgII9KswaUcGUy-ySZ8fM4yzfhq_XCjMaGiPPqLG3HNDvcZwJXeVsN1OsKqvXr235q3OHnOSkk" style="width:109.5pt;height:82pt">
</span></span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"></span></p>
<div><img src="cid:ii_k568kkvs0" alt="image.png" width="146" height="109"><br></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 6:54 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 5:43 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt">So, does anyone disagree that
physicists can’t yet tell us the qualitative color of anything?</span></p></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>1) Absence of comment does not constitute agreement or disagreement.</div><div><br></div><div>2) The term "qualitative color" is basically meaningless. You can state a definition, sure, but as a not-widely-used term it can be redefined in the next post and quite probably no one would notice.</div><div><br></div><div>3) If you mean to ask about some phenomenon in the brain (such as what exactly happens after red photons enter a person's eye, that generates perception and memory), that's biology, not physics. The fact that physicists are not experts on the biology of the brain does not itself make the workings of the brain a mystery beyond all human comprehension.</div></div></div>
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