<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div class="ydpd9f543b8yahoo-style-wrap" style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;"><div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Personal autonomy, yes, but not obedience to others or a right to rule over others. If there's a duty to obey someone, that would mean the obedient don't have personal autonomy, no? The right to rule is the flip side of this.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">You seem to conflate being ruled by someone else with respecting their autonomy. That's simply not the case in the ordinary meaning of being ruled or of obeying. (No one is someone's obedient servant merely because they don't rob, assault, or kill that person. No one is someone's ruler because that other person doesn't rob, assault, or kill them. If you disagree, then your world must abound in rulers and servants in a way that the terms make no distinctions over anyone save for folks living apart from everyone else.) In fact, an attack on someone's person or life is someone else really attempting to rule over them. It's treating them as if they're not autonomous -- not an end in themselves. And the right to stop them extends only so far as preserving autonomy. That doesn't put one into relationship as their ruler -- as the right ends when they're stopped (and maybe, in some cases, restitution* or further harm prevention+).</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Regards,<br></div><div class="ydpd9f543b8signature"><br></div><div class="ydpd9f543b8signature">Dan</div></div><div class="ydpd9f543b8signature"><br></div><div class="ydpd9f543b8signature" dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">* As in you intentionally break my vase, you pay to replace it plus some damages.</div><div class="ydpd9f543b8signature" dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div class="ydpd9f543b8signature" dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">+ As in you're proved to be a repeat offender, perhaps you're no longer permitted near my vase collection.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div id="ydpd7f7fbf9yahoo_quoted_9525924250" class="ydpd7f7fbf9yahoo_quoted" style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"><div style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(38, 40, 42);"><div>On Saturday, January 11, 2020, 12:52:44 AM PST, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" dir="ltr" x-apple-data-detectors="true" x-apple-data-detectors-type="link" x-apple-data-detectors-result="1" style="color: currentcolor;">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:</div><div><br></div><div><div id="ydpd7f7fbf9yiv8634352845"><div dir="ltr"><div class="ydpd7f7fbf9yiv8634352845gmail_quote"><div class="ydpd7f7fbf9yiv8634352845yqt7152912794" id="ydpd7f7fbf9yiv8634352845yqtfd72645"><div preoffsettop="512"><blockquote type="cite" __apple_fixed_attribute="true" preoffsettop="512"><div class="ydpd7f7fbf9yiv8634352845gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 3:02 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:</div></blockquote><blockquote class="ydpd7f7fbf9yiv8634352845gmail_quote" preoffsettop="546" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div><br clear="none"></div><div>On the issue of libertarianism: Does anyone have a right to rule over anyone else? Does anyone have a duty to obey anyone else?</div><div><br clear="none"></div></blockquote></div></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>### Strictly as a libertarian - of course, yes to both, for many values of "rule" and "obey". Enemies who refuse to let you live - they may need to be ruled, and they certainly must obey. Follows neatly from the notions of personal autonomy that are the bedrock of libertarianism.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Rafal</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></body></html>