<div dir="ltr"><p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Hi Ben,</span></p><p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><br></span></p><p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">You
asked:</span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">“</span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,176,80);background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">Now why
on earth would the experience of redness suddenly become the experience of
greenness? </span><i style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="font-size:11pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,176,80);background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">How</span></i><span style="font-size:11pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,176,80);background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"> could it?</span><span style="font-size:11pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">”</span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"> </span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">By simply inverting the red green signal
anywhere in the causal chain of events that is perception as proven can be done
<a href="https://canonizer.com/videos/consciousness/" style="color:blue">here</a> (skip to the “Inverted
Perception” part).</span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"> </span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">It remains a fact that you could engineer (using
just such inversions both upstream and downstream from physical knowledge) one
robot to represent red knowledge with your redness, and another robot to
represent red with your greenness. See “<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_spectrum" style="color:blue">Inverted Qualia</a>”) They could both pick strawberries equally
well.</span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpLast" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">You seem to be admitting that you only use one
word for all things “red”. That is the definition
of “Qualia Blindness”. In that world
there is an “<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explanatory_gap" style="color:blue">explanatory
gap</a>” because you need at least two words (red and redness) to model simple effing of the
ineffable ideas like: “My redness is like your greenness, both of which we call
red.” As long as we remain qualia blind, nobody can know the true physical color of anything.</span></p><p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpLast" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><br></span></p><p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpLast" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">It's not a "hard mind body problem" it's just a color problem.</span></p><p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpLast" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><br></span></p><p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpLast" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><br></span></p><p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpLast" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><br></span></p><p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpLast" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><br></span></p></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Feb 3, 2020 at 9:50 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
On 03/02/2020 14:28, Brent Allsop wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span>Hi Ben,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span>“</span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,176,80);background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">I
expect it will be a
description that isn't all that easy to decipher, as well.
It will necessarily
relate to a large number of processes, and will be different
(possibly wildly
different) in different brains, and likely restricted to a
single point in time.</span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">”</span><span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><span>We are talking about
completely
different things. </span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
No, we're not.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><span>You are talking about
information abstracted away from different qualities as they
change over time and between people. </span><span> </span><span>I’m talking
about the quality (process) that is changing.</span><span> <br>
</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Although you are muddying things terribly, by using the word
'qualities'. I'm talking about the patterns of information in the
brain that arise when our senses send information into the brain.
You just said you're talking about the same thing, except you use
the word 'quality' instead of 'process'.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><span> </span><span>I’m
asking, what is the color of this process, before it
changed, and how did this
process change?</span><font face="Times New Roman, serif"><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
What does that even mean?? A process doesn't have a colour! No more
than knowledge does.<br>
<br>
I don't know how to say it any more simply: The sensation of
experiencing a colour is a pattern of information-processing in the
brain. That's it. It's not 'about' something else, it doesn't have a
'quality', it's not 'abstracted away' from anything, it just is.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font face="Times New Roman,
serif"><span style="font-size:12pt">There is a </span><span style="font-size:16px">necessary</span><span style="font-size:12pt"> functional cost to achieve this
substrate independence. </span></font><span>If P1 is the process
before the change, and P2 is the objectively observable
different process after
the change, </span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
What change are you talking about here?<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><span>you need two different
dictionaries to get the same abstract information
from the different processes before and after the change.</span><span> </span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
There is no need to get any abstract information. The processes <i>are</i>
the experiences of colour.<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><span>Colors are just colors.</span><span> </span><font face="Times New Roman, serif"><span style="font-size:12pt">Sure,
a redness processes can change from
redness to greenness, </span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Colours are indeed just colours. Now why on earth would the
experience of redness suddenly become the experience of greenness? <i>How</i>
could it? The only reason the experience is an experience of redness
is because of the similarity it has to prior red things experienced.
A redness experience could be succeeded by a greenness one, though,
and this happens all the time. Look from the strawberry to a leaf.
But no-one is going to look at a strawberry and suddenly see a green
thing (unless they have brain damage, or are colour-blind, in which
case the leaves and the fruit are all the same colour).<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font face="Times New Roman,
serif"><span style="font-size:12pt">and we can have
different dictionaries to get the same 'red' </span><span style="font-size:16px">information</span><span style="font-size:12pt">.</span></font><span> </span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
No, there are no dictionaries. There is no 'red information'. There
are patterns of information, and associations with very many other
patterns, shifting all the time. The pattern that today in Bob means
'I see a red strawberry', could well be different tomorrow, and is
likely to be very different in Bill, but they all mean the same
thing. The closest thing to a dictionary that could be said to exist
is the memories of similar things seen in the past, in a particular
individual (IOW, examples). Memories that, even if very similar in
content, are probably encoded in different patterns in different
people, and changed in the same person when they access them (I
assume you're familiar with the idea that we change our memories
every time we remember them. Or at least we re-write them, and they
can easily change during this process).<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><span>The dictionary before the
change defines the redness
process to be red, and after the change, the dictionary
defines greenness to be
red.</span><span> </span><span>A redness quality just is,
if it
changes, it is an objectively observable and subjectively
experienceable different process, there are no
dictionaries required.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
The only thing that defines redness is the prior examples we have
experienced.<br>
And there's that word again. There is no such thing as a 'redness
quality'. There are information processes that cause people to say
"That thing there is red". We can't say much more than that. One day
we may be able to, but not today.<br>
<br>
<pre cols="72">--
Ben Zaiboc</pre>
</div>
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