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On 03/02/2020 14:28, Brent Allsop wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:mailman.264.1580740131.13152.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in
0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">Hi Ben,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in
0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in
0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">“</span><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,176,80);background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">I
expect it will be a
description that isn't all that easy to decipher, as well.
It will necessarily
relate to a large number of processes, and will be different
(possibly wildly
different) in different brains, and likely restricted to a
single point in time.</span><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">”</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in
0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in
0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><span
style="font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;font-size:12pt">We are talking about
completely
different things. </span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
No, we're not.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:mailman.264.1580740131.13152.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in
0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><span
style="font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;font-size:12pt">You are talking about
information abstracted away from different qualities as they
change over time and between people. </span><span
style="font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;font-size:12pt"> </span><span
style="font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;font-size:12pt">I’m talking
about the quality (process) that is changing.</span><span
style="font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;font-size:12pt"> <br>
</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Although you are muddying things terribly, by using the word
'qualities'. I'm talking about the patterns of information in the
brain that arise when our senses send information into the brain.
You just said you're talking about the same thing, except you use
the word 'quality' instead of 'process'.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:mailman.264.1580740131.13152.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in
0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><span
style="font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;font-size:12pt"> </span><span
style="font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;font-size:12pt">I’m
asking, what is the color of this process, before it
changed, and how did this
process change?</span><font face="Times New Roman, serif"><span
style="font-size:12pt"> </span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
What does that even mean?? A process doesn't have a colour! No more
than knowledge does.<br>
<br>
I don't know how to say it any more simply: The sensation of
experiencing a colour is a pattern of information-processing in the
brain. That's it. It's not 'about' something else, it doesn't have a
'quality', it's not 'abstracted away' from anything, it just is.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:mailman.264.1580740131.13152.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in
0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font face="Times New Roman,
serif"><span style="font-size:12pt">There is a </span><span
style="font-size:16px">necessary</span><span
style="font-size:12pt"> functional cost to achieve this
substrate independence. </span></font><span
style="font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;font-size:12pt">If P1 is the process
before the change, and P2 is the objectively observable
different process after
the change, </span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
What change are you talking about here?<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:mailman.264.1580740131.13152.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in
0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><span
style="font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;font-size:12pt">you need two different
dictionaries to get the same abstract information
from the different processes before and after the change.</span><span
style="font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;font-size:12pt"> </span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
There is no need to get any abstract information. The processes <i>are</i>
the experiences of colour.<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:mailman.264.1580740131.13152.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in
0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><span
style="font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;font-size:12pt">Colors are just colors.</span><span
style="font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;font-size:12pt"> </span><font
face="Times New Roman, serif"><span style="font-size:12pt">Sure,
a redness processes can change from
redness to greenness, </span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Colours are indeed just colours. Now why on earth would the
experience of redness suddenly become the experience of greenness? <i>How</i>
could it? The only reason the experience is an experience of redness
is because of the similarity it has to prior red things experienced.
A redness experience could be succeeded by a greenness one, though,
and this happens all the time. Look from the strawberry to a leaf.
But no-one is going to look at a strawberry and suddenly see a green
thing (unless they have brain damage, or are colour-blind, in which
case the leaves and the fruit are all the same colour).<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:mailman.264.1580740131.13152.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in
0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font face="Times New Roman,
serif"><span style="font-size:12pt">and we can have
different dictionaries to get the same 'red' </span><span
style="font-size:16px">information</span><span
style="font-size:12pt">.</span></font><span
style="font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;font-size:12pt"> </span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
No, there are no dictionaries. There is no 'red information'. There
are patterns of information, and associations with very many other
patterns, shifting all the time. The pattern that today in Bob means
'I see a red strawberry', could well be different tomorrow, and is
likely to be very different in Bill, but they all mean the same
thing. The closest thing to a dictionary that could be said to exist
is the memories of similar things seen in the past, in a particular
individual (IOW, examples). Memories that, even if very similar in
content, are probably encoded in different patterns in different
people, and changed in the same person when they access them (I
assume you're familiar with the idea that we change our memories
every time we remember them. Or at least we re-write them, and they
can easily change during this process).<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:mailman.264.1580740131.13152.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in
0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><span
style="font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;font-size:12pt">The dictionary before the
change defines the redness
process to be red, and after the change, the dictionary
defines greenness to be
red.</span><span style="font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;font-size:12pt"> </span><span
style="font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;font-size:12pt">A redness quality just is,
if it
changes, it is an objectively observable and subjectively
experienceable different process, there are no
dictionaries required.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
The only thing that defines redness is the prior examples we have
experienced.<br>
And there's that word again. There is no such thing as a 'redness
quality'. There are information processes that cause people to say
"That thing there is red". We can't say much more than that. One day
we may be able to, but not today.<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Ben Zaiboc</pre>
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