<div dir="ltr"><p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Hi
John,</span></p>

<p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>

<p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,176,80);background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">“The brain chemistry might be different but the
end result, your behavior, would be exactly the same.”</span></p>

<p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>

<p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">No,
the behavior will not be the same when you ask them: “What is red like for you?”  We will have a dictionary between brain chemistry
and redness, and experimentalists will be objectively observing things like who
is and who isn’t a red/green qualia inverted. 
People will know this, and be able to tell you they are ‘red/green’
qualia inverted form the norm, an so on. 
i.e. very different responses to the question: "What is redness like for you?"</span></p>

<p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>

<p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpLast" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Would
you and Ben agree that your beliefs about the legitimacy of using one word for
all things “red” would be falsified, if my prediction that about 10 years after
the majority of experimentalists start doing non qualia blind observation of
the brain, someone will discover what it is, that has a redness quality.  This will falsify all be THE ONE true theory
of consciousness and lead to the above explained behavior of people finding out
things like who is and who is not red/green qualia inverted from the norm.</span></p><p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpLast" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><br></span></p><p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpLast" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">To say nothing of the 1. week, 2. strong. and 3. strongest forms of effing the ineffable, and finding out what color physical things really are.</span></p><p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpLast" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><br></span></p><p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpLast" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><br></span></p><p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpLast" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><br></span></p><p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpLast" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><br></span></p></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 4, 2020 at 10:40 AM John Clark via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On Tue, Feb 4, 2020 at 10:55 AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:</span><br></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">



<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> </span>Evidently,
you’re not fully grasping what is going on</span></p></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="4">One of us is certainly not grasping something. This big change you talk about is just a change in a convention not in anything substantial; you're just changing the origin point of a coordinate system, you're changing one meter to 39.37 inches.</font></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">

<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,176,80);background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">>> </span>“There would be no way you could even notice
subjectively that a change of some sort had been made.”</span></p>

<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>

<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> </span>False.  Subjectively a physical redness quality you
are directly aware of would change from redness to greenness, a huge subjective
change. </span></p></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"></font><font size="4">Suppose I tell you I will make this "huge subjective change" sometime in the next hour but not exactly when. I tell you to ring a bell the instant you detect this "huge subjective change". How in the world are you going to know when to ring that bell?! As long as the change has been made consistently there is absolutely no way you could tell. If you can't tell that a "huge subjective change" has even been made then it can't be huge, in fact it can't be a subjective change of any sort big or small. And that tells me the only thing that gives a color qualia meaning is its relationship with other color qualia, and that's why a old fashioned photographic negative had as much information as the positive print.</font></div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">

<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,176,80);background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">>> </span>“And there is no way I could see any change in
your objective behavior either.”</span></p>

<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>

<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> </span>False,
Objectively, you could observe whatever physics it is which that brain is using
to represent conscious knowledge of the red</span></p></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"></font><font size="4">The brain chemistry might be different but the end result, your behavior, would be exactly the same. And semiconductor physics and vacuum tube physics are different but when computers based on those technologies add 2+2 they both output 4, and there is no difference between one 4 and the other 4. </font></div><div> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">

<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><i><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> </span>What
is it that you think: “My redness is like your greenness, both of which we call
red.” Means?</i></span></p></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="4">We can both see a difference between a strawberry and a leaf in addition to their shape and size. </font></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="4"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="4"> John K Clark</font></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div>
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