<div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 at 08:48, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">The
trouble I’m having with this conversation is how one sided it seems. I make an effort to re-iterate your
positions, even asking for feedback and then fixing where I’m making mistakes in my
understanding of your positions, till I get what you guys agree is correct. Ben said:</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,176,80)">“</span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,176,80);background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">I think we're done here. I see no point talking to a broken
record</span>.”<span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,176,80)"></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">So,
if I’m still failing to acknowledge something, I’ll be happy to listen to
whatever that is again, and repeat it back till I get it right.</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I
see critical issues in what I re-iterate back to you, but when I try to point
these out, it seems like nobody even acknowledges that I have any issue, let alone
anyone trying to understand what those issues might be. I’m not seeing efforts to re-iterate back
many of the problems I see. All I hear
is the same old failure to acknowledge the issues I see with what Ben refers to
as a “broken record” re-iterations of the same old same old:</span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><br></span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"></span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,176,80);background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">“I'll be damned if I understand how you've reached
that conclusion!</span>”</p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
</p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">followed immediately with re-assertions of your positions (which I've already repeated back) like:</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,176,80);background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">“you couldn’t notice a change if the physical
change was compensated for with another physical change</span>”</p></div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">And the reason is that if you repeat it back you seem to agree, but then later disagree. It would help if you clearly said something like “there can be a change in qualia without a change in behaviour”. (And I have defined behaviour: it is everything that can be observed, including speech, and not just strawberry-picking ability).</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"></p></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 4, 2020 at 1:55 PM Stathis Papaioannou <<a href="mailto:stathisp@gmail.com" target="_blank">stathisp@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 at 02:54, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Hi
John:</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Evidently,
you’re not fully grasping what is going on if you think what you are saying is
true. Once we discover which physics it
is in our brain which has a redness quality, we will have a dictionary connecting
the word “redness” to that physical quality.
(example being glutamate behavior is redness behavior.)</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,176,80)">“There would be no way you could even notice
subjectively that a change of some sort had been made.”</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">False. Subjectively a physical redness quality you
are directly aware of would change from redness to greenness, a huge subjective
change. Because we have such a dictionary,
people will be able to answer questions like: “What is your redness like?” with “glutamate” and you will know that is
like your greenness, and so on.</span></p></div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Subjectively you couldn’t notice a change if the physical change was compensated for with another physical change; for example, if the glutamate was changed and the glutamate receptors was also changed. It is always theoretically possible to make such a compensatory change, and for this reason it is impossible to attach qualia to any particular substrate or physics.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,176,80)">“And there is no way I could see any change in
your objective behavior either.”</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">False,
Objectively, you could observe whatever physics it is which that brain is using
to represent conscious knowledge of the red with (example: glutamate) and when
it physically changed (example: changed to glycine) you would know that that
brain is a qualia invert from what it was, before.</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">And
there will be the 3 different forms of effing the ineffable to objectively
verify all this.</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">What
is it that you think: “My redness is like your greenness, both of which we call
red.” Means?</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Once
we have the dictionary, and better ability to observe the brain, we’ll be able
to ask people questions like: What do you represent red with? People will know if they are normal, or a
red/green qualia invert from normal people.</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">And
if we see a bat using glutamate to represent echolocation information with, we’ll
be able to answer the question: “What is it like to be a bat?” with, it is like glutamate, or your redness.</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">And
the best part, all the absurd religious beliefs about qualia, such as “<a href="https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Substance-Dualism/48" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:blue" target="_blank">substance dualism</a>”,
“<a href="https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Panexperientialism/34#statement" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:blue" target="_blank">everything
including rocks are conscious</a>”, “<a href="https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Orch-OR/20" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:blue" target="_blank">consciousness is down at the
quantum level</a>” and all the mistaken people making careers of arguing there
is a “hard mind body problem” of some kind will finally be put out of business. So many other absurd ideas people currently believe
in will be objectively proven false. The
only reason people believe in them, today, is because they know science “can’t
account for qualia”. Once we can account
for all this, only people like “flat earthers” will be able to be justified in believing
in all such absurdity.</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 4, 2020 at 5:44 AM John Clark via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On Mon, Feb 3, 2020 at 4:17 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:</span><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></span><br></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></span></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">></span>You
<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">[Ben] </span>asked:</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">“</span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,176,80)">Now why
on earth would the experience of redness suddenly become the experience of
greenness? </span><i style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="font-size:11pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,176,80)">How</span></i><span style="font-size:11pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,176,80)"> could it?</span><span style="font-size:11pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">”</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">By simply inverting the red green signal
anywhere in the causal chain of events that is perception as proven can be done
<a href="https://canonizer.com/videos/consciousness/" style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:blue" target="_blank">here</a></span></p></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"></font><font size="4" style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">You keep saying that but I don't know what you think has been proven. As long as the inversion was done consistently and included memories (so ripe strawberries and leaves don't suddenly have the same color) then there would be no way you could even notice subjectively that a change of some sort had been made. And there is no way I could see any change in your objective behavior either. So if whatever you're talking about produces no subjective change, and no objective change in behavior, then whatever change you're talking about is not important to either. </font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font size="4" style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font size="4" style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"> John K Clark</font></div>
</div></div>
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