<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div>Hi Stathis,</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 2:04 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><span id="m_-3856080135943443100gmail-m_-4253396197204337850m_2562050741904061935gmail-m_-5695886404300285078gmail-m_1643068950629961850gmail-docs-internal-guid-bd958a40-7fff-4989-6238-ee8fa4131697"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">So, from now on, how about I refer to what we are both trying to talk about as: “Stathis’ </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:700;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">‘behavior’</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">which, if it remains the same, the subjectivity remains the same.”?</span></p></span></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div>As long as we understand that this refers to high level behaviour, particularly behaviour associated with honestly communicating about the subject's experiences.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yay, I think this is progress.</div><div><br></div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div>I don't like the term "spiritual" but there are several terms that mean the same thing: subjective, qualia, consciousness, mental.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Right, but I predict (falsifiably) that "subjective", "qualia", "consciousness", "mental" are labels for physical things, where you predict (also falsifiably) that these words are labels for things that at best "supervene" on physics, so we can't use those words.  If you don't like the word "spiritual" for all things that are not physical, what word would make you happy, that would include everything from substance dualism to anything else that is seperated in any way from physicalism, including supervene ism?</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div>I don't think that "redness is always redness" could be called part of the behaviour. The behaviour is what a scientist would observe. A scientists would not observe that "redness is always redness", although he might observe that a report of redness is always associated with certain neurological processes. The two components of the behaviour are the high level behaviour of the system, such as saying "that is red", and the low level behaviour, such as neurons firing and bones moving. The low level behaviour can change without affecting the high level behaviour, and in this case, the subjectivity must remain the same. The subjectivity is dependent on the high level behaviour.<br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This is qualia blind.  You are talking about "higher level behavior" (which you say is 'saying "that is red"')  and "low level behavior" (which you also say is neurons firing causing the muscles to move 'bones'.)  Both of these are the same thing.  No place in here is anything that is factually  "<span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Stathis’ redness </span><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);font-weight:700;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">‘behavior’</span><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">which, if it remains the same, the subjectivity remains the same.” There must be something which is the initial cause of the neurons firing, causing the bones to move, when the subject says: that is red. I"m trying to talk about THAT, but every time I do, you say it can't be that.  What is this </span>"<span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Stathis’ redness </span><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);font-weight:700;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">‘behavior’</span><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">which, if it remains the same, the subjectivity remains the same.”  and must not this be the initial cause of the neurons firing to make us say: "That is red"?</span></div><div><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><br></span></div><div><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">If you don't like </span>"redness is always redness", just replace both words of redness with <span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">this fact: "Stathis' redness </span><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);font-weight:700;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">‘behavior’</span><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">such that, if it remains the same, the subjectivity remains the same.”</span></div><div><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><br></span></div><div><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">There is a type of slight of hand or changing the subject you always do that is very frustrating. Every time I try to talk of the factual substrate behaviour that is </span>"<span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Stathis’ redness </span><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);font-weight:700;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">‘behavior’</span><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">which, if it remains the same, the subjectivity remains the same.” even if this factual substrate behavior only supervenes on physical substrate you always try to change the subject to something that "will cause red-green qualia inversion but they do not notice a change".  Neither you, nor I are ever talking about a case where something "will cause red-green qualia inversion but they do not notice a change".  We are only talking about the facts of the matter when someone experiences "<span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";vertical-align:baseline">Stathis’ redness </span><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";font-weight:700;vertical-align:baseline">‘behavior’</span><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";vertical-align:baseline"> </span><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:11pt;vertical-align:baseline">which, if it remains the same, the subjectivity remains the same.” and what honestly and accurately causes them to report "that is red".  We are only talking about a system for which if you replace the </span></span>"<span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";vertical-align:baseline">Stathis’ redness </span><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";font-weight:700;vertical-align:baseline">‘behavior’</span><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";vertical-align:baseline"> </span><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:11pt;vertical-align:baseline">which, if it remains the same, the subjectivity remains the same.”  We are trying to both point out that </span><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:11pt;vertical-align:baseline">if you replace that with something different, both the behavior and the subjective experience are different.  </span><span style="background-color:transparent;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial;font-size:11pt;white-space:pre-wrap">Please stop misdirecting the conversation to be about something nobody is talking about.  </span><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:11pt;vertical-align:baseline">If you are talking about any type of neural substitution that results in something that "will cause red-green qualia inversion but they do not notice a change" that type of neural substitution has nothing to do with the necessary facts of the matter mentioned above, and doesn't make any sense at all.</span></span></div><div><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:11pt;vertical-align:baseline"></span></span></div></div><div><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:11pt;vertical-align:baseline"><br></span></span></div><div><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:11pt;vertical-align:baseline"><br></span></span></div><div><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:11pt;vertical-align:baseline"><br></span></span></div><div><br></div><div><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:11pt;vertical-align:baseline"><br></span></span></div><div><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-size:11pt;vertical-align:baseline"><br></span></span></div><div><br></div></div></div></div>