<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, 12 Feb 2020 at 06:10, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><br><div><br></div><div><span id="gmail-m_1643068950629961850gmail-docs-internal-guid-bd958a40-7fff-4989-6238-ee8fa4131697"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Hi Stathis,</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Aren't we just talking past each other?  We are both trying to stress: “</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:700;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">As long as the ‘behavior’ remains the same the subjectivity must also remain the same.</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">”</span></p></span></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That's what I am trying to say about the overall behaviour of the system.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><span id="gmail-m_1643068950629961850gmail-docs-internal-guid-bd958a40-7fff-4989-6238-ee8fa4131697"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">  Are you not also saying, exactly, the subjectively is dependent on the </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:700;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">‘behavior’</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"> you are referring to as staying the same here?  </span></p></span></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, the subjectivity is dependent on the behaviour.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><span id="gmail-m_1643068950629961850gmail-docs-internal-guid-bd958a40-7fff-4989-6238-ee8fa4131697"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">There are two parts to your </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:700;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">‘behavior.’</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"> First there is the fact of the matter, that redness (even if it is not physical as you assert with:  “It supervenes on the physical”) is always redness.  </span></p></span></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don't think that "redness is always redness" could be called part of the behaviour. The behaviour is what a scientist would observe. A scientists would not observe that "redness is always redness", although he might observe that a report of redness is always associated with certain neurological processes. The two components of the behaviour are the high level behaviour of the system, such as saying "that is red", and the low level behaviour, such as neurons firing and bones moving. The low level behaviour can change without affecting the high level behaviour, and in this case, the subjectivity must remain the same. The subjectivity is dependent on the high level behaviour.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><span id="gmail-m_1643068950629961850gmail-docs-internal-guid-bd958a40-7fff-4989-6238-ee8fa4131697"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Would it be better if, instead of saying just “physical qualities like redness and grenness,” I say: “physical (or spiritual if you must) qualities like redness and greenness.”?  By “spiritual”, I mean anything that is not physical.  For example, if redness behavior is only related to physical behavior in a “supervening” way, then it is included in anything that is not physical, all of which is “spiritual”.</span></p></span></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don't like the term "spiritual" but there are several terms that mean the same thing: subjective, qualia, consciousness, mental. These are not behaviours because they cannot be observed by a scientist, only inferred.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><span id="gmail-m_1643068950629961850gmail-docs-internal-guid-bd958a40-7fff-4989-6238-ee8fa4131697"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">The second part is our communication behavior, saying “That is redness”.  While it is possible for someone to say: “that is redness”, when they meen greenness, that is using a dictionary of different facts.  If you are always talking about the facts of the matter,  </span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">“</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:700;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">As long as the ‘behavior’ remains the same the subjectivity must also remain the same.</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">”  Every time I try to pin your </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:700;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">‘behavior’</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"> down to anything, including magic, you accuse me of talking about something different than this factual redness that is your </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:700;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">‘behavior’</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"> which must remain the same as the subjectivity.  Whatever your </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:700;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">‘behavior’</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"> is which remains the same, along with the subjectivity, is not this subjectivity dependent on this behavior which you assume is remaining the same?</span></p></span></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It is possible for the high level behaviour of the system to remain the same because we have not tested it enough, even though there is a subjective change. For example, the subject could be made colourblind, but because they are tested in a darkened room, where they would not perceive colours anyway, they do not notice, and they behave the same. Or the subject might have their red-green qualia inverted, and because they are not asked about it, or they deliberately conceal it, they behave the same. But we must assume for these thought experiments that we can put the subject through any test and they are being honest, so if they notice a change they will say something. In this case, if they have a procedure which you think will cause red-green qualia inversion but they do not notice a change and you do not notice a change in their high level behaviour (despite the change in the low level behaviour in their brain) then the procedure did NOT cause qualia inversion. For the word "qualia" would be meaningless otherwise.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><span id="gmail-m_1643068950629961850gmail-docs-internal-guid-bd958a40-7fff-4989-6238-ee8fa4131697"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">So, from now on, how about I refer to what we are both trying to talk about as: “Stathis’ </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:700;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">‘behavior’</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">which, if it remains the same, the subjectivity remains the same.”?</span></p></span></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div>As long as we understand that this refers to high level behaviour, particularly behaviour associated with honestly communicating about the subject's experiences.</div><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">Stathis Papaioannou</div></div>