<div dir="ltr"><p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Hi
Stathis,</span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">No
matter how I try to say things, you always twist them to be something
different, so they can fit into your assumption that the “forces” and “behavior”
are different than the qualia. I
completely agree that everything you say is true, given the assumption that "forces",
and "behavior" are different than qualia.
So, if you are going to eternally map what I’m trying to say, into your
assumption, we will never make any more progress. Let me know if you are willing to try looking
at things in a different way, with some different assumptions. Let me know if you are going to make an
attempt to do what I have done for you, the way I am repeating back to you,
what you are trying to say to me, and working from within your model.</span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpLast" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Otherwise,
progress will continue to be impossible.</span></p></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Feb 15, 2020 at 2:46 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, 16 Feb 2020 at 06:12, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><br><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Right,
but what you are telling people is that all we need to do to upload and fix
something, is to put it all in a computer that only has 1s and 0s.
What you are effectively telling people is that all we need to do is to
restore the ability of the robot to pick the strawberry. Nothing else matters.</span></p></div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">No, humans do not just pick strawberries, they also see them, smell them, have emotional responses to them and so on. A human who had a brain implant that allowed them to pick strawberries without these other experiences would immediately tell us that there was something seriously wrong with their perception. A human who had artificial neurons that perfectly matched the I/O behaviour of their biological neurons, on the other hand, would not only pick the strawberries but also report that they looked, smelled, tasted and so on exactly the same.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">But,
when you go down that rat hole that ignores so many of the facts (beng like Mary, not know the color all our abstract descriptions of physics are
describing) You are telling the
experimentalists you don’t need to step out of the room, and find out what
color things are. You are telling them
it is perfectly OK to remain “qualia blind”.
You are telling them the only thing that matters is restoring the ability
to pick the strawberry.</span></p></div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">You seem to miss the fact that I keep saying it is impossible for the subject to become qualia blind when a qualia blind scientist does the neural replacement correctly.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font face="Times New Roman, serif" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">In
that world, as Chalmers has become famous for, there is a “hard” (as in
impossible) problem. "fading dancing absent" qualia don't make any sense. </span></font><font face="Times New Roman, serif" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">There is an “explanatory
gap”. And this huge “gap” is where all
the religious and sloppy crap emerges. There
is no experimental way to falsify any of these crap theories. Nobody can know what consciousness is, nobody
can know what uploading will be like.
They think that if they can pick the strawberry, the upload will be a
success, but they have this (very justified) uncomfortable feeling that maybe
this will not be the case, because they realize that they don’t even really
know if someone else is conscious or not, or if anything else really exists or not. They can't really know if there is "</span></font><a href="https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0399201/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt" target="_blank">The Island</a><font face="Times New Roman, serif" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">" or if they are </span><span style="font-size:16px;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">more</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> likely like Logan in "<a href="https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074812/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif" target="_blank">Logan's Run</a>".</span></font></p></div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">But you can be confident that if the experimentally verifiable behaviour of the neuronal model is all in order, then the consciousness will also be in order. Isn’t that exactly what you want?</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font face="Times New Roman, serif" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"></span></font></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font face="Times New Roman, serif" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">The only reason experimentalists are still so qualia blind (like Mary) is precisely because
of functionalist using their sloppy </span><span style="font-size:16px;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">sleight</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> of hand, leading them away from what
is important: The real color of things.</span></font></p></div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Experimentalist are still often contemptuous of philosophy and of the idea of qualia, which they think is philosophy rather than science. Nevertheless, this does not stop them doing a good job of elucidating and perhaps one day replicating the function of neurological tissue.</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font face="Times New Roman, serif" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"></span></font></p></div>
</blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr">Stathis Papaioannou</div>
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