<div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, 22 Feb 2020 at 07:20, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Hi Stathis,</div><div><br></div><div>OK, so we have</div><div> "Qualia = subjective experiences = an aspect of phenomenal consciousness".</div><div><br></div><div>And we have</div><div> "
Behaviour = that which an external observer can see"</div><div><br></div><div>and we have</div><div><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> “<b>As
long as the 'behavior' remains the same the subjectivity must also
remain the same.</b>”</span> <br></div><div><br></div><div>which connects the two in a consistent and factual way.</div><div><br></div><div>Would you also agree with the converse of the above statement?:</div><div> “<b>As
long as the 'subjectivity' (quale) remains the same the behavior must also
remain the same.</b>” </div></div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Yes. If we consider a behaviour such as speech, the subject will not say that their qualia have changed unless they think that they have changed.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div></div><div>Or at least if there is a set of behavior for a particular 'subjectivity' redness, and a set of behavior for a different subjectivity 'greenness,' if the subjectivity is different the corresponding sets of behaviors for each of those different 'subjectivity' (quale), must be disjoint. In other words any particular set of behavior can't have two different 'subjectivity' (quale).</div></div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Yes, but there is a potential problem here. If we speculate that the subject’s qualia have changed from redness to greenness, but their behaviour does not change because they do not notice a change, then in what sense is it meaningful to say that the qualia have changed?</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div></div><div>And, for you, these behaviors which are factually related to particular subjectivity (qualia) are independent of any particular set of physics (only because of the substitution argument).</div><div><br></div><div>In other words, we have a dependent subjective layer like redness and greenness (and corresponding disjoint sets of behavior) out of which consciousness is constructed, that rides on top of any physical layer in a way that can be considered physical substrate independent.</div><div><br></div><div>The terminology I think we should use is the former is consciousness is substrate dependent (where that substrate is subjectivity or quala) the behavior of which is independent of any particular set of physics.</div><div><br></div><div>But I'm imagining you won't like even this kind of qualia being any kind of substrate, so I was trying to come up with another term qualia strate to make you happy.</div></div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">You’re right, I don’t think it is good to use the word “substrate” referring to qualia because “substrate” specifically refers to a physical substance. But I am confused as to why you would say consciousness is dependent on qualia, since consciousness and qualia are essentially the same thing. The only difference is that consciousness is usually used to mean multiple qualia taken together.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div></div><div>So, my question to you is: "Do we need a different terminology, or can we consider qualia (and the associated behaviors) as a substrate on which consciousness is dependent?"</div><div><br></div><div>No matter what you call it, it is still the same thing, right?</div></div><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 4:23 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, 20 Feb 2020 at 09:19, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Hi Stathis,<div>So then does it help if I point out the fact that consciousness is red and green qualia strate dependent (as opposed to saying sub strate dependent)?</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>No, because I won't know what "qualia strate dependent" means and how it is different from "sub strate dependent". You could define them but you would have to do so every time you use them.</div><div><br></div><div>These are some terms that I find unambiguous:</div><div> </div><div>Qualia = subjective experiences = an aspect of phenomenal consciousness</div><div>Behaviour = that which an external observer can see</div><div>Qualia are substrate dependent = only a particular substance or physical process can give rise to the particular qualia</div><div><br></div><div>Are there more terms that are necessary for this discussion and need to be defined?</div><div><br></div><div>Using even some apparently simple terms such as "knowledge", for example, can become confusing. "Knowledge" can have an objective as well as a subjective element; "knowledge of qualia" is doubly confusing, because it could mean directly experiencing qualia or it could mean observing behaviour which might be associated with qualia. </div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 3:51 PM Brent Allsop <<a href="mailto:brent.allsop@gmail.com" target="_blank">brent.allsop@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 3:36 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>I think you could simplify your language. “Red qualia” or “red experience” is understood by most people and is unambiguous. It is also understood that it is not the strawberry that has the red qualia, it is the observer. Talking about red, redness, redness quality, redness knowledge becomes confusing to keep track of. I would have to go back and check if you mean that “redness quality” is something in the strawberry or in my mind, and if “redness knowledge” is the same or different.</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for this information. </div></div></div>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr">Stathis Papaioannou</div></div>
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</blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Stathis Papaioannou</div>