<div dir="ltr">Hi Stathis,<div><br></div><div><p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Hrmmm,
but our brain does a huge amount of computational binding, for all pixels, all
in parallel. The only way computers are
able to almost keep up, while only barely computationally binding single
registers, is by doing all this minimal binding of pixels, one at a time, sequentially,
<b>VERY</b> fast.</span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">So,
in addition to: why would evolution do things in a substrate independent way,
if substrate independence needs lots of additional unnecessary dictionaries,
there is also evolution couldn’t do it sequentially, the way computers do it,
because it could never achieve the same speed.
Our phenomenal consciousness, running directly on physical qualities,
all done in parallel is the only way it could have evolved. That is certainly more likely than any kind
of discrete logic computational binding evolving, especially in a substrate
independent way.</span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Saying:
“</span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">If all the different inputs are integrated, then that should be enough
for all the different inputs to be integrated in its consciousness” doesn’t
make you ashamed of how ‘hand wavy’ this type of stuff is, and you don’t see
any need for some kind of ‘miracle’ to make the odd substrate independent (qualia
are separated from reality) you are assuming can happen?</span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"> </span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpLast" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">Can you even describe what computational
binding is, and what a composite qualitative experience is? Because the way you say things like this, it
seems to prove you have no idea what a composite qualitative experience must be.</span></p><p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpLast" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><br></span></p><p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpLast" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><br></span></p></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Feb 23, 2020 at 7:13 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div dir="ltr"></div></div><div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, 24 Feb 2020 at 07:58, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Hi Stathis,</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 12:59 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div>Robots and computers manage multiple inputs without any specific “binding”. The “binding” consists in the fact that the different inputs and outputs intimately interact. </div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Wait, What???</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font face="Times New Roman, serif" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">The
first step a computer does to know if a pixel is ‘ripe enough’ is to load an
abstract representation of that one pixel’s color into a register of a CPU, Then
load another value into another register (dictionary: ripe enough) then do a
difference operation. This difference
operation is performed by a huge set of </span><span style="font-size:16px;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><b style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">DISCRETE</b></span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> logic gates. These kinds of </span></font><span style="font-size:16px"><b>DISCRETE</b></span><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">operations on </span>registers<span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> in a CPU is the limit of the amount of computational binding a computer can do. </span><font face="Times New Roman, serif" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">The abstract output of this large set of </span></font><b style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt">DISCRETE</b><font face="Times New Roman, serif" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
binding is loaded into a register. This
gives you yet another abstract difference value, which is loaded into a register.
This third value is the CPU’s abstract knowledge
of whether it is positive (dictionary: ripe), or negative (dictionary: not
ripe). And that JUST gives you the ripeness
of one pixel.</span></font></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font face="Times New Roman, serif" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">We,
on the other hand are aware of not just that one pixel, we are aware of all of
them as one computationally bound composite conscious experience. We are also aware of, if each of the pixels
is red, it is ripe, so this “the strawberry is ripe” info must also be
computationally bound in with all the other pixels. (And if any part of the strawberry is green,
we know that part isn’t ripe yet, all in one unified </span><span style="font-size:16px;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">composite</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> experience.)</span></font></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font face="Times New Roman, serif" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">There
is nothing enabling any of these </span><span style="font-size:16px;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><b style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">DISCRETE</b></span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> abstract computer pixels to be
bound to any of the other pixels, other than what is done with a few CPU registers. Heck,
only one pixel at a time can ever be in the CPU at any one time. The closest you get is some additional
iteration on all the pixels, loading them, one at a time, into a register, then
collecting a sum, then doing a divide to get an average or something. But this single abstract number that </span><span style="font-size:16px;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">represents</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> the average of all the pixels is in no way providing any kind of "intimacy" between any of the pixels.</span></font></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font face="Times New Roman, serif" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">In
other words, since there is no machinery in any of this </span><span style="font-size:16px;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><b style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">DISCRETE</b></span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> logic enabling
any of these pixels to be aware of any of their pixel neighbors, it is all
necessarily like our sub conscious. NOT conscious,
due to lack of computational binding.</span></font></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">You
said: “</span>The “binding” consists in the fact that the different inputs and
outputs intimately interact.”<span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font face="Times New Roman, serif" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">How
can any such </span><span style="font-size:16px;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><b style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">DISCREET</b></span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><b style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </b>“intimacy” be in any way one single composite computationally
bound composite qualitative experience?
Oh, yea, you just wave your hands, and ignore the necessary “a miracle
happens here” step.</span></font></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div> I return to my standard line: if the machine or animal behaves as if all the different inputs are integrated, then that should be enough for all the different inputs to be integrated in its consciousness. There is no way an extra process to combine the inputs could evolve.</div></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div></div><div>-- <br><div dir="ltr">Stathis Papaioannou</div>
</div>-- <br><div dir="ltr">Stathis Papaioannou</div>
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