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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org> <b>On Behalf Of </b>John Clark via extropy-chat<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 11:48 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><i>John do you see any significant difference between the two mainstream parties</i><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…GOOD GOD YES! </span></b><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Except that the Republicans aren't mainstream anymore, nowadays they're America's Fascist Party…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Again with the deities. Putting a different name on them doesn’t change their spending habits. Apparently we have two fascist parties now, for they are both spending money like the allied troops are approaching from all directions.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span class=gmaildefault><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>> </span></span><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>I don’t accept your notion that borrowing can continue forever either. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…Why not?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Because it leads to the obvious next step: if we can borrow forever, why do we pay taxes at all? Just borrow it all. Better yet, borrow more than that, buy up things of lasting value, pay back never.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…It's worked fine for nearly 200 years because improved technology lead to increasing productivity…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Does the scheme fail when technology fails to keep increasing productivity? What if the markets for all that productivity fails?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…which means the dollar I borrow today can be paid back tomorrow with a dollar that is easier for me to obtain…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>For YOU to obtain? John didn’t you tell us you retired recently? You do not need to obtain anything. The next generation, which is smaller and earns less than you do must obtain those dollars to pay the debt we ran up before we retired.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…Because the Democrats made a mistake and didn't take computer security as seriously as they should have…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>So they were the ones who slew thousands? Or is it up to millions?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…but if I foolishly forget to lock my front door that doesn't mean it's OK for you to come in and steal everything I have…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Previously you told us it was all just office gossip. But before that it somehow got whats-his-name elected which has slain thousands and is heading for the millions. So office gossip was stolen, which no one apparently ever read (did you? Neither did I) and somehow this influenced an election?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Methinks there are some steps missing in your proof.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…What are you talking about, when Russia hacked the Democrats…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>How do we know the Russians did this? The “evidence” cited by our FBI was Russian comments inserted here and there. One of the IT team was Ukrainian and is fluent in Russian. So we had a few Russian comments in a pile of office gossip which no one ever read, when the party refused to give the server to the FBI. The FBI got it after the fact from CloudStrike, an IT company headed by a Ukrainian who hates Russia with a passion seldom seen.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>So I am back to: How do we know the Russians did this?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…Putin got something of incredible value, his boy in the White House…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>How do we know office gossip had anything to do with either boy? Are we not overlooking the perfectly obvious please?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…Assange's actions will result in the death of thousands and perhaps millions of people and I stand by every word of that statement…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span class=gmaildefault><i><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>> </span></i></span><i><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Have you any evidence of that notion?</span></i><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…On February 26 Trump said there were 15 cases of COVID-19 …<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>{…Cutting a full paragraph having to do with covid, nothing to do with Julian Assange.}<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…Did Julian Assange have half a brain?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Do we have a trace of evidence Assange had any role in spreading covid? Do explain that please, starting with he published some office gossip, then fill in some steps between that and covid slays thousands.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>>…Assange … must have known nobody would perform more incompetently in a crises than Donald Trump…<o:p></o:p></span></p></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'> <br><i>> Evidence please? How would he know that?</i><o:p></o:p></span></p></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…Oh I don't know,... having less inflation adjusted money now then he had decades ago when he was given money by his daddy, owning a casino and failing to make money off of it, and 6 bankruptcies might have given him a clue, or just listening to the man talk for 5 minutes…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Assange’s father has casinos?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>John I am not asking about casinos, I am wanting to know how you get from Julian Assange publishing office gossip to a virus slaying thousands. This is as dramatic a leap as Fermat writing that he had discovered a marvelous proof but it was too large to fit in the margin.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Are we not overlooking the perfectly obvious please?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…So... do you really think publishers are in the habit of publishing anything and everything anybody sets before them? <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Online publishing is free. The content is free. The content was political. Of course Assange will publish everything he can get his paws on. That’s what he does.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=MsoNormal><span class=gmaildefault><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>></span></span><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…And although it received far less publicity the fact is the Republican National Committee was also hacked by Vladimir Putin's goons…<o:p></o:p></span></p></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:11.55pt'><span class=gmaildefault><i><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>> </span></i></span><i><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Evidence? </span></i><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><a href="https://www.wired.com/2017/01/russia-hacked-older-republican-emails-fbi-director-says/">Russia Hacked 'Older' Republican Emails, FBI Director Says</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><a href="https://www.cnn.com/2017/01/10/politics/comey-republicans-hacked-russia/index.html">Republicans also hacked by Russia</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Did the Russians give it to Assange? How do we know?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…I see nothing contradictory in it and this certainly wouldn't be the first time careers and lives have been ruined by gossip … <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'> <span class=gmaildefault>> </span>Trivial office gossip killed thousand or millions now? Do break down this line of reasoning step by step please,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Step#1)Trivial office gossip provided by Julian Assange…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Provided BY Julian Assange? Did you mean TO Julian Assange?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>… 53,650 voters in <span style='color:#3C4043'>Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan that Donald J Trump was more moral than </span>Hillary Clinton…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>I didn’t read any of the office gossip, I have no reason to think it had anything to do with any particular politician’s moral standings. John the material is public. Before you go past that step, do quote us something that would indicate the office gossip was about anyone’s moral standings. Failing that, work that step that 53,650 voters were influenced by office gossip about a particular politician’s moral standings. I just don’t see it.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…Step#2) Trump won as a result… John K Clark<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>OK we need a loooot more detail here.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>We need some indication that a far bigger factor was not the material found on Carlos Danger’s laptop computer.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…Step #3)…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Little point in going past here. I am still wondering how office gossip (I have never met anyone who claims to have read it) somehow influenced all those voters in those three particular states to vote a certain way.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>I can’t think of how these office workers would have had any particular knowledge of any particular candidate’s morals. If they did, why didn’t any of that material ever make it into the mainstream press? Juicy gossip sells like hotcakes on the internet. I don’t recall any of that leaked email ever being quoted. Do you? I would suppose it is still around somewhere. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>In step 2, you theorize that office gossip that no one actually read or even quoted, overturned an election, while overlooking the obvious: the voters didn’t like the candidate and most voters did not vote for her.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>spike<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt'><br><br></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></body></html>