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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat<br><b>…</b><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><b>On Behalf Of </b>Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 at 11:17, spike jones via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> >>…I notice a common notion among those who do not believe that a militia is necessary to the security of the free state: they cannot fathom a situation where the government cannot pay the soldiers and police. They cannot understand how a government would not be able to pay. That isn’t the least bit difficult for me to imagine, and hasn’t been for decades. …What if… we try to re-open the economy, but every time we do, there is a massive new outbreak, resulting in a new lockdown? And what if that continues? For months? What if longer than that? Then businesses fail in unison. Tax revenues dwindle to nearly nothing. Is that difficult to imagine?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>…spike<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>>…Well, I misunderstood. I thought you were saying the citizens should have arms so that they can resist the Government if they tried to abuse their power…<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Hi Stathis,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>In the scenario easily envisioned, the government fails and isn’t really in the picture.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>>…The only real power the Government has is through employees that can use force, such as the police and the armed forces; surely you don’t believe that Donald Trump himself will force his way into your home in order to take the gold you have buried in the garden…<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>No, governments abusing power would come in other forms besides breaking into homes where there isn’t much to seize. It would be in the form of seizing 401Ks, bank accounts and retirement accounts. Gold isn’t worth much in these scenarios. The currency of choice is food and ammo, but the government already has plenty of that. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>>…Now you are talking about something quite different: what if the Government cannot pay its employees? Then I suppose they will ask for volunteers, or reintroduce the draft, which is essentially a form of slavery…<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Draft: there would be no draft. The Fed would need to furlough most of the military it already employs. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>They don’t need to ask for volunteers, they already have them: the militias. The government doesn’t pay the militias, nor does it feed, arm or clothe them. They already thought of that and wrote it into the constitution from the start, over 230 yrs ago. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>In 1789, the notion that the Federal government could go bankrupt was a very real and present danger. They needed a contingency plan, for their finances back then were nearly as shaky and dubious as the US government’s finances are today. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>(Well, OK that’s a bit of a stretch, but they were on some pretty shaky ground back in the 1780s.)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>>…That would suck, but it would probably wouldn’t suck any less if there were millions of people running around with guns. -- Stathis Papaioannou<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>In the USA, there are already millions of people running around with guns; it has always been that way. The best estimates are that there are somewhere around 400 million guns in America. Some of us have more than one of course. Those millions of people running around with guns are why the US government hasn’t already seized more power than the Constitution allows. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>There are somewhere between 8 billion and 15 billion rounds of ammo sold in the USA per year, and not all of that is fired. Ammo tends to accumulate, because it keeps forever (army surplus WW1 ammo still works perfectly even though it is over 100 yrs old) and is an excellent reserve currency (better than gold.) Reasonable estimates suggest there are perhaps half a trillion rounds of ammo in the US alone. The NRA bumper sticker has the ring of truth: if we were the problem, believe me, you would know.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>spike<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>