<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 1:03 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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On 24/04/2020 18:16, Jason Resch wrote:<br>
Various things.<br>
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The problem is, the very nature of religion is about control, not
figuring things out.</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I would say that depends on the religion. What about <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%CA%BC%C3%AD_Faith#Summary">Bahai Faith</a>, <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism">Unitarian Universalism</a>, the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Life_Church">Universal Life Church</a>, and countless others?</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div> Religions are about prescriptions and
proscriptions. You have to do this, you can't do that. You must
believe this, you can't question that. That's one problem, rather.
Another one is that science is about <i>finding out</i>. Religion
is about <i>believing</i>. </div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>In my view, both religion and science are about believing. You can say religion is the set of beliefs one holds. Science is a tool by which we can refine, deepen and correct errors in our beliefs.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>In science, evidence is king. In
religion, evidence is the enemy.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Again, this is highly dependent on the particular religion. Take these words, from the son of the founder of the Bahai Faith:</div></div><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><div>"If religion were contrary to logical reason then it would cease to be a religion and be merely a tradition. Religion and science are the two wings upon which man's intelligence can soar into the heights, with which the human soul can progress. It is not possible to fly with one wing alone! Should a man try to fly with the wing of religion alone he would quickly fall into the quagmire of superstition, whilst on the other hand, with the wing of science alone he would also make no progress, but fall into the despairing slough of materialism."</div></div></blockquote><div class="gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div>According to Carl Sagan,</div><div><br></div></div><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div>"[Science] works. It is not perfect. It can be misused. It is only a tool. But it is by far the best tool we have, self-correcting, ongoing, applicable to everything. It has two rules. First: there are no sacred truths; all assumptions must be critically examined; arguments from authority are worthless. Second: whatever is inconsistent with the facts must be discarded or revised. We must understand the Cosmos as it is and not confuse how it is with how we wish it to be. The obvious is sometimes false; the unexpected is sometimes true."</div></div></div></blockquote><div class="gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div>Could we say that Carl Sagan's belief in science his "religion"? Why or why not? What elements of belief are necessary for something to be labeled a religion in your view?</div><div><br></div><div>How does it square with what these scientists have said about the nature of the relation between religion and science?</div><div><br></div></div><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><div>"Science and religion are both still close to their beginnings, with no ends in sight. Science and religion are both destined to grow and change in the millennia that lie ahead of us, perhaps solving some old mysteries, certainly discovering new mysteries of which we yet have no inkling." -- Freeman Dyson</div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div>"Science can now offer precisely the consolations in facing death that religion once offered. Religion is now part of science." -- Frank Tippler </div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div>"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- Albert Einstein</div></div></blockquote><div class="gmail_quote"><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>
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You can say that the word 'god' can mean a lot of different things.
Fine. Sell that to the religious folks, see how far you get. </div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don't need to. All of those examples of different concepts of God I provided are core elements of existing religions. Creator, Truth, Reality, and Consciousness, are the most common descriptions of God across most of the major religions today. For example, just sticking to God as Truth, you find:</div></div><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div><b>Judaism/Christianity:</b> “Into your hands I commit my spirit; redeem me, O LORD, the God of truth.” -- Psalm 31:5</div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div>The mathematician Hilda Phoebe Hudson said “To all of us who hold the Christian belief that God is truth, anything that is true is a fact about God, and mathematics is a branch of theology.”</div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div><b>Islam</b>: "Al-Ḥaqq (The Truth, The Real)" -- One of the 99 names of God given in the Koran</div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div>The Muslim polymath Ibn al-Haytham described his theology saying, “I constantly sought knowledge and truth, and it became my belief that for gaining access to the effulgence and closeness to God, there is no better way than that of searching for truth and knowledge.”</div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div><b>Hinduism</b>: "Parabrahmana (The Supreme Absolute Truth)" -- One of the 108 names of Krishna</div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div>“I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, whose effulgence is the source of the nondifferentiated Brahman mentioned in the Upanishads, being differentiated from the infinity of glories of the mundane universe appears as the indivisible, infinite, limitless, truth.” -- Hymn to the Absolute Truth in the Brahma Saṁhitā</div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div>Mahatma Mohandas Gandhi said "If it is possible for the human tongue to give the fullest description of God, I have come to the conclusion that God is Truth.”</div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div><b>Sikhism</b>: “There is one creator, whose name is truth" -- The Mul Mantar (Root Mantra)</div></div></blockquote><div class="gmail_quote"><div><br>These religions account for about half the world's population. It shows that when you get past the fables and mythology, and into the theology of various religions, the concepts of God become much more nuanced. If you want more examples, such as the idea of God as a Creator or God as Consciousness, I can provide those as well.<br></div><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>All the
things you mention might (or might not) be reasonable, but none of
them are any reason to worship, obey a set of commandments, or
otherwise bow down and accept unquestioningly what some priest or
ancient book tells you. And <i>that</i> is what religion is about.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That perhaps is what it is about to you and perhaps others. But it doesn't have to be that way. There are sets of beliefs compatible with science, and there are ways of believing that incorporate scientific understanding to evolve one's beliefs over time.</div><div><br></div><div>I agree with you that a static belief system is not as good as one that can adapt in response to new evidence and understanding. I am not arguing for a static belief system, only pointing out that there are frameworks of belief (what you might call religious systems) that transcend the definition of religion that you provide.</div><div><br></div><div>Interesting thought: Is Sagan's definition of science itself a static belief? How could it ever change?<br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>
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If you, or anyone else, wants to start a religion that's not about
power and control, doesn't assert that magic (the supernatural) is
real,</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>To presume the supernatural is not real is to assume we currently possesses a complete understanding of nature, which I am sure we don't have.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div> that doesn't care who you have sex with or what you eat or
wear, and doesn't tell you that you must believe certain things
without question, great. Go ahead. I might even join it (of course,
I'm already a member, on account of being an Omnitheist :D ). But
I'd have to ask, what makes it a 'religion'?<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>A religion, in my definition, is just a set of beliefs. Perhaps more specifically, a set of basic or fundamental beliefs about reality.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>
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PS Please don't CC your replies to the list, to my email address.
There's no need, and it's annoying. Thanks.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>My apologies.</div><div><br></div><div>Jason</div></div></div>