<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><span style="border-collapse:separate"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><span style="border-collapse:separate"><div style="">Hi John,</div><div style=""><br></div><div style="">   I think fractures are undesirable, and although they may seem easy to repair if they're "clean" - even so, that's a lot of repairing. There were experiements done by Dr. Cavallo (not sure if I'm spelling his name correctly, he was the doctor interested in doing the first head transfer) claiming that when he severed the spinal cord of a chimpanzee using a micro-sharp blade, he was able to get neural regrowth at the two ends (allowing the head transplantation). He did not claim, however, that the neuron-to-neuron pathway wiring was accurate, and if I were to guess I would it is likely is was not. Same for healing complete fractures after cryopreservation. Guided nanotech may be an answer but that's speculative for now, and its unlcear what information will be used to guide the nanomachines, so with what we know now - I think deep organ and tissue fractures/cracks are something to minimize.</div><div style=""><br></div><div style="">  My concern about hormone simulation is not about the speed of their signalling, but the entraining and dynamics of the entire system. While some hormones are easy to model (like insulin), many interact widely in nertworked hormonal systems, like growth hormones, stress hormones, or female reproductive hotmoens. These hormonal feedback cycles interact not only with the body but also with the brain/mind. I often describe these cycles as similar to a system of interconnected pendulums, and disturbances in any of the cycles (ie, pendulum frequencies) can cause de-entraining of the entire system, which is then diffuclt to re-entrain, or may even find a new equilibrium. Keeping such a system stable is what I think is difficult, maybe impossible to emulate - not the speed of the hormonal information transfer.</div><div style=""><br></div><div style="">   I'm famiilar with the prisim experiment, in fact when I was a kid I taped my big brother's bar prisim to my glasses, and proceed to stumble and fall all over my parents house for almost 2 days, stalking around and claiming I would "learn to see again". I accreted far too many bruises and bloody cuts to be allowed to finish that experiment, but I am confident it works - and, there are many, many interesting examples of people learning to "see" or "hear" with their tongues, navigate blind using only input from a weighted belt device, hearing sounds from the sparse data of a cochlear implant, and others. No doubt the cortex is completely able to do this. </div><div style=""><br></div><div style="">But the task in a new body would be overwhelming - like asking your mature brain to inhabit and rewire the sensory cortex of a newborn. I imagine it could be like multi-year long drug trip. That has to deeply change the essential you. I think this experience would be overwhelming, and brains are not infinitely able to rewire so very much without harm. </div><div style=""><br></div><div style="">As in my last email, I think you risk losing yourself: even if the brain copy + agent manages to eventually make sense of the world with all these changes and becomes an autonomous agent itself - it will not be "you". The happy goal of re-animating "you" will not have been met. I believe it *can* be met, but not via uploading.</div><div style=""><br></div><div style="">-Regina</div><div style=""><br></div><div style=""><br></div><div style=""><br></div><div style=""><br></div><div style=""><br></div><div style=""><br></div><div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">-----------------------------</span></div><div style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Message: 4</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 09:25:26 -0400</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">From: John Clark <</span><a href="mailto:johnkclark@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">johnkclark@gmail.com</a><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">></span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">To: ExI chat list <</span><a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank" style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">></span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">        brains)</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Message-ID:</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">        <</span><a href="mailto:CAJPayv2N6nMJY9BkN0g5jenHiKhVr8OOFry5TLTY3x6G_2sMPQ@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank" style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">CAJPayv2N6nMJY9BkN0g5jenHiKhVr8OOFry5TLTY3x6G_2sMPQ@mail.gmail.com</a><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">></span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 8:07 AM Re Rose via extropy-chat <</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank" style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">> wrote:</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">*> Agreed, it's easier to get faster cooling rates (although that's not</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">> always better, depending on the physical properties of the tissue and the</span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"> ability to homogeneously cool without causing stress fractiures...)*</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">I don't think cracks is a major problem in cryonics because with a clean </span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">crack it should be pretty obvious what part went where before the crack </span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">formed and so could be repaired. I'm much more worried about the liquid in </span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">the brain undergoing chaotic turbulence as it freezes because if it does </span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">then very small differences in initial conditions could lead to huge </span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">differences in outcome; but fortunately most indications are the flow would </span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">be Laminar, at least when the cryopreservation is done under ideal </span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">conditions.</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">*> I think any upload is problematic. I believe there are two problems that</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">> will be really hard to solve: first, preserving the cyclic, dynamical</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">> environment of non-neural information available in the body such as</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">> hormonal cycles or feedback from non-neural neurotransmitters (such as from</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">> your gut) is difficult, with no solution on the horizon.*</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">></span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Why on earth would emulating hormones be especially difficult? Hormone </span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">signals are very slow, much less than one meter per second; the signals in </span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">a AI move at 300,000,000 meters a second. The Shannon information conten </span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">is small, there are only about 200 hormones in the human body. And Hormone </span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">signals move by random diffusion and blood circulation so their target is </span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">not very specific. If your job is delivering packages and the packages are </span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">very small, and your boss will be satisfied if you just deliver them to the </span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">correct continent, and you have until the start of the next millennium to </span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">do it, then you don't have a very demanding job.</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">> *> Second, your cortex is specifically wired to accomodate your body, with </span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">all its quirks, balances, habits, accomodations, skillz, and tics. Every </span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">human body is different*</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">The cortex is also wired to learn new things. Experiments show that even </span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">when people wear glasses that make everything look upside down they soon </span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">learn to get used to it and perform normally. The same was true for glasses </span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">that invert left and right, one subject safely road his motorcycle through </span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">a crowded city with no problem.</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">We quickly adjust to seeing everything upside-down</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><</span><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/education/2012/nov/12/improbable-research-seeing-upside-down" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">https://www.theguardian.com/education/2012/nov/12/improbable-research-seeing-upside-down</a><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">></span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">John K Clark</span>  <br></div></span></div></div></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>