<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto">If you live in Harlem, policing your own block isn’t such a big deal. You know them and they know you.<div><br></div><div>But I do think a professional “police officer” and a civilian “peace officer” doing patrols together would be a really good thing. The type of people who do Cop Watch come to mind. Very unlikely to turn off a body cam, and very likely to report improprieties.</div><div><br></div><div>By switching up the pairs on a semi-regular basis, and allowing anonymous reports, I think that would be a good option. </div><div><br></div><div>Another option: 1 cop, 1 social worker. <br><br><div dir="ltr">SR Ballard</div><div dir="ltr"><br>On Jun 10, 2020, at 10:52 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">The last thing we need is people who go out and try to be heroes. And I doubt you'd get any volunteers to police Harlem. You are right about high speed chases, but calling ahead and putting down tire destroyers (or whatever they are called) does work. I think that volunteers could easily be added to neighborhoods - unarmed, strolling around saying Hi to people and getting to know them, wearing a badge but no uniform or other equipment. These volunteers could get to know the criminals, the places too easy to rob, and so on. But I cannot see relying on them alone. Maybeyou could put a volunteer together with a cop in a patrol car. Sometimes you need two people in the cop car, but they don't have to both be cops. Someone to call 'officer in trouble' would come in handy.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">bill w</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 10:31 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">I think maniacs driving 120mph are somewhat self limiting. But studies show that high speed chases are the wrong approach.<div><br></div><div><a href="https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a9096/why-high-speed-police-chases-are-going-away-15532838/" target="_blank">https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a9096/why-high-speed-police-chases-are-going-away-15532838/</a></div><div><br></div><div>Voluntary police can still work IF the areas are made small enough. For example, someone would not want to police all of manhattan. But 4 blocks? I think they’d be willing to. </div><div><br></div><div>And there’s enough dudes who try to be heroes anyway, so I think “shots fired” would still get responded to.</div><div><br></div><div>Withe voluntary community policing, crime becomes a personal affront. Whether that’s good or bad is a different story. <br><br><div dir="ltr">SR Ballard</div><div dir="ltr"><br>On Jun 9, 2020, at 8:12 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Perhaps I missed them because I thought when I read them that they were ludicrous. Personal defense is a good idea, but most people never get attacked. Private security would, I assume cost more than what we get with tax dollars and poor people could not afford it.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Voluntary police: I can see this working if a town is not larger than a few hundred. Numerous problems here, including training, insurance if hurt, and the likelihood that an ordinary citizen would go on a call where shooting is occuring. I just can't see getting thousands of volunteers in big cities where violent crime is not rare at all but happens many times a day.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Just to give one example: which of the above would deal with maniacs driving 120 mph on city streets? bill w</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 7:31 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">You must have missed the three examples I gave in my first two sentences:</span><div><font color="#000000"><span><br></span></font></div><div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">1. “personal self-defense“</div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">2. “voluntary defense associations for those extremely rare occasions when violent confrontations happen”</div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">3. “Private security” </div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">I brought up the Benson book and the Smith essay as examples of a vast literature by libertarians on how to deal with this issue. Not only is the literature vast, but it goes back decades. The idea of dismantling the police and government in general are not really all that new in libertarian circles. Again, they’ve been discussed and written about before I was born.</div><br><div dir="ltr"><div style="line-height:normal"><div style="line-height:normal"><span style="line-height:20px;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Regards,</span></div><div style="line-height:normal"><span style="line-height:20px;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></span></div><div><div style="line-height:normal"><span style="line-height:20px;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Dan</span></div><div style="line-height:normal"><span style="line-height:20px;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"> Sample my Kindle books at:</span></div><div style="line-height:normal"><p style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Helvetica"><span style="font-size:12pt"><a href="http://author.to/DanUst" target="_blank">http://author.to/DanUst</a></span></p></div></div></div><div><div style="line-height:normal"></div></div></div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Jun 9, 2020, at 2:21 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">I am simply not interested enough in it to read a book. But just a hint or two about how to deal with crime without police would be a help. bill w</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 3:37 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">I don't have all the answers here, but personal self-defense and voluntary defense associations for those extremely rare occasions when violent confrontations happen. Private security already plays a role in current US-American society, such as security guards inside shopping malls and the like. So I don't see any reason why people can't specialize in security and things like detection and apprehension of suspects. What wouldn't exist under such a system is a group of people who have special privileges because of this specialization. (And self-help wouldn't be outlawed.)</span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"></span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">Elsewhere I mentioned Bruce L. Benson's 1990 book _The Enterprise of Law: Justice Without the State_. He goes over much of this in far more depth than me. Also, market anarchists have been discussing how to deal with crime without the state for decades now. This is all part of the literature of libertarian thought, no? (What shocks me is meeting people who call themselves libertarians who seem unaware of this work. Have you heard of Benson's work? That's not his only book. How about George H. Smith? Have you read his essay "Justice Entrepreneurship In a Free Market"? He wrote on this subject back in 1979!)</span><br><br><div dir="ltr"><div style="line-height:normal"><div style="line-height:normal"><span style="line-height:20px;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Regards,</span></div><div style="line-height:normal"><span style="line-height:20px;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></span></div><div><div style="line-height:normal"><span style="line-height:20px;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Dan</span></div><div style="line-height:normal"><p style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Helvetica"><span style="font-size:12pt"></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
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