<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 2:23 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:</span><br></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US"><div class="gmail-m_-4876035560936148159WordSection1"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span style="font-size:14pt">>…But it doesn't even matter because even if it's true it would in no way change the fact that the healthcare system in the USA sucks compared to the rest of the world…</span></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal"><i style=""><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> </span>I see, so the method is to establish that judgment as the baseline fact, and any observation to the contrary is irrelevant unless it conforms to the assumption. </i><br></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><font size="4">The baseline is not <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">an</span> assumption<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">.The baseline comes from</span> <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">2 FACTS:</span></font></div><div><br></div><font size="4">1) The US spends far FAR <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><b>FAR</b> </span>more on health<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">care</span> than any other country<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">.</span><br>2) Despite spending that vast amount of money the US only has the 38th longest life expectancy in the world.</font></div><div class="gmail_quote"><font size="4"><br></font><font size="4">You claim the flaw in our healthcare system is in medical education and then you claim the flaw is in the drug testing part of the healthcare system, I don't really think either of those is the most significant flaw but it's not worth debating because even if true it wouldn't change the 2 facts stated above. A good healthcare system would spend the least amount of money and get the longest life expectancy, but the US spends by far the largest amount of money on healthcare and yet it only has the 38th longest life expectancy. So obviously something is very seriously wrong, the system is flawed. So at this point I think it might be wise to show a little humility and admit that we don't know everything and some other countries might be able to do some things better than we can. So let's swallow our pride and learn from them.</font><br><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US"><div class="gmail-m_-4876035560936148159WordSection1"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span style="font-size:14pt">>…If true<span class="gmail-m_-4876035560936148159gmaildefault">,</span> which I doubt<span class="gmail-m_-4876035560936148159gmaildefault">,</span> it just means the US is <span class="gmail-m_-4876035560936148159gmaildefault">wasting that drug testing money pushing paper and not on helping patients live longer…<u></u><u></u></span></span></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal"><i><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> </span>I hear that turn of phrase often, but it always causes me to wonder where they push the paper to?  Does it suggest the half billion it costs to bring a new drug to market is not used for testing efficacy?<br></i></p></div></div></blockquote><div> </div><font size="4">I don't know where they're pushing the papers to, but if they're using all that money for testing efficacy then obviously their testing sucks because 37 countries are spending far less and getting far more. So that's pretty damn ineffective efficacy testing!</font><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><font size="4"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US"><div class="gmail-m_-4876035560936148159WordSection1"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span style="font-size:14pt">>…..I wasn't aware you were in favor of affirmative action to favor minorities…</span></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal"><i><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> </span>All minorities deserve protection,</i></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><font size="4">Who<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> is</span> protecting those <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">poor second class citizens </span>who get 66.7 times <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">fewer</span> citizenship rights<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">?</span></font></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US"><div class="gmail-m_-4876035560936148159WordSection1"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span style="font-size:14pt">>… but <span class="gmail-m_-4876035560936148159gmaildefault">Wyoming is lily white, </span>only 2.47%<span class="gmail-m_-4876035560936148159gmaildefault"> of the population is Native American and 1.8% black…<u></u><u></u></span></span></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal"><i><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> </span>Why is that relevant please?  </i><br></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><font size="4">Beats <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">the hell out of me, but</span> then I'm not the one who <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">made the</span> ridiculous <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">claim that the</span> <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></span>electoral college<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </span>protect<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">s</span> minority rights<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">.</span> </font></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US"><div class="gmail-m_-4876035560936148159WordSection1"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span style="font-size:14pt">>…I am quite certain that isn't true<span class="gmail-m_-4876035560936148159gmaildefault">,</span> but if it was that would <span class="gmail-m_-4876035560936148159gmaildefault">mean </span>a <span class="gmail-m_-4876035560936148159gmaildefault">c</span>oalition<span class="gmail-m_-4876035560936148159gmaildefault"> of</span> states is a bad idea <span class="gmail-m_-4876035560936148159gmaildefault">a</span>nd a coalition of people would work much better<span class="gmail-m_-4876035560936148159gmaildefault">…<u></u><u></u></span></span></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal"><i><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> </span>So we are told in the communist dictatorships.</i></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style=""><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"></font><font size="4">Do you mean "communist dictatorships" like those in Hong Kong, Japan, Singapore, Italy, Spain, Switzerland, Australia, Iceland, Israel, SouthKorea, Sweden, France, Malta, Canada, Norway, Greece, Ireland, Luxembourg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Portugal, Andorra, Finland, Belgium, Austria, Germany, Slovenia, UnitedKingdom, European Union, Cyprus, Denmark, Liechtenstein, Costa Rica, Chile, Czech Republic, Barbados and Lebanon? Every single one of these countries spends far FAR less per capita on healthcare than the USA does and the citizens of every single one of these countries live longer than Americans do. Don't you think that maybe just maybe the US could learn something from them? Or do you continue to think there is no need to change a thing because we've already got our healthcare working just perfectly despite what the data clearly shows?</font></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US"><div class="gmail-m_-4876035560936148159WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt"><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><i style=""><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> </span> The minority of voters who live in less populated areas</i><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><i style=""></i> [...]</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><font size="4">I don't even know what <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">"</span>minority<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">"</span> means in this context<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">. If I'm the only one living in a state with a large land area then I'm the majority of the population. And besides</span><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> as you point out, people are able to move, so those </span>who live in less populated areas can always move <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">to</span> more populated areas<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">.</span></font></div><span style="font-size:14pt"> </span><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US"><div class="gmail-m_-4876035560936148159WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span style="font-size:14pt">>… land ownership is just one of many forms of wealth…</span></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal"><i><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> </span>Sure but one need not own land to live in Wyoming.</i></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><font size="4"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">If it's</span> not land area then<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></span> what the hell is the <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">secret </span>magical quality th<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">at makes people who live in Wyoming 66.7 times better than people who live in California?!  Could the secret sauce be that people who live in Wyoming are 66.7 times as likely to be MAGA Hatter gun nuts?</span></font></div><div><font size="4"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span></font></div><div><font size="4"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">John K Clark</span></font></div></div></div>