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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>John Clark via extropy-chat<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [ExI] you'll never see this again<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 10:21 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span class=gmaildefault><i><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>> </span></i></span><i><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Some jurisdictions in the USA did stop the virus better than any others. The world’s top three are Alaska, Wyoming and Montana. </span></i><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…For some reason you didn't mention<span class=gmaildefault> </span>the state with the very lowest COVID-19 death rate<span class=gmaildefault>,</span> Hawaii<span class=gmaildefault>.</span> <span class=gmaildefault>i</span>t couldn't be because it's a democratic state c<span class=gmaildefault>ould it?<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>No, it was because I hadn’t heard that and I don’t what party that state is. That is irrelevant in any case, because covid doesn’t have a party. It has some states which have been devoured and others which have been spared. Political party information isn’t on the chart where I found the data in any case. It was a colored map. Hawaii is easy to miss down there.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Incessant politicization of covid is a crass form of leveraging a crisis into an opportunity. Each time any political party or politician is mentioned in this context, the credibility of a covid-related post drops by half. That isn’t science at its best, it’s politics at is worst. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span class=gmaildefault><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>> </span></span><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Take into account also that in most countries, students go from high school into medical school. In the US they usually must go to college first,which runs up costs. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><br>>…I don't know where in the world you got that but maybe it's true for Third World countries but not for the 37 countries that have a longer life expectancy than the US does…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>I got it from Quora:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#282829'>What countries require an undergraduate degree before applying to medical school?<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#636466'>…</span><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#282829'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#282829'><a href="https://www.quora.com/profile/Shaik-Afshan-2" target="_blank">Shaik Afshan</a></span></b><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#282829'>, former Student<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#939598'><a href="https://www.quora.com/What-countries-require-an-undergraduate-degree-before-applying-to-medical-school/answer/Shaik-Afshan-2" target="_top">Answered July 6, 2018</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><b><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#282829'>Australia, New Zealand, UK, USA and Canada are the countries in which you need to have a bachelor's degree before entering into the medical school.</span></b><span style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#282829'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>I don’t know if it is true. Anyone here know? I have two friends, one went to medical school in China, one went to medical school in Iran, both from high school to med school, both had her medical license in early 20s. Both came to America, neither have been allowed to practice.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…But it doesn't even matter because even if it's true it would in no way change the fact that the healthcare system in the USA sucks compared to the rest of the world…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>I see, so the method is to establish that judgment as the baseline fact, and any observation to the contrary is irrelevant unless it conforms to the assumption. Very well. There is no further discussion required, the conclusion has been drawn.<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span class=gmaildefault><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>>…<i> </i></span></span><i><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Our drug qualification trials are more expensive than other countries,</span></i><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…If true<span class=gmaildefault>,</span> which I doubt<span class=gmaildefault>,</span> it just means the US is <span class=gmaildefault>wasting that drug testing money pushing paper and not on helping patients live longer…<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>I hear that turn of phrase often, but it always causes me to wonder where they push the paper to? Does it suggest the half billion it costs to bring a new drug to market is not used for testing efficacy? <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=gmaildefault><i><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></i></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=gmaildefault><i><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>>…</span></i></span><i><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>The beauty of the representative republic model </span></i><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…Giving some people 66.7 times more representation than others is a pretty crappy model<span class=gmaildefault>,</span> and it's not very beautiful either<span class=gmaildefault>…<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>It protects minority rights. Minorities have rights too. Without that system, most states become irrelevant. However, the heavy lifting in the task of government takes place at the state level. People from sparsely populated states have a lot more individual influence on a state government, each of which has two senators. That makes perfect sense to me.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=MsoNormal><span class=gmaildefault><i><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>> </span></i></span><i><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>every American is free to move to Wyoming if we wish.</span></i><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…Spike<span class=gmaildefault>,</span> do you honestly believe <span class=gmaildefault>love it or leave it</span> is a good defense of the electoral college<span class=gmaildefault>?<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Not at all. Love Wyoming, don’t leave it. It is part of America, an important part. I am not suggesting leaving America, just going to Wyoming. Do not resent the residents there, join them. They are good people. I have been there (family history tour.) The people of Wyoming are a treasure.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=gmaildefault><i><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>>… i</span></i></span><i><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>s that it protects minorities against majority rule. Minorities deserve protection from majority rule, which is fascism. All minorities deserve protection.</span></i><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…..I wasn't aware you were in favor of affirmative action to favor minorities…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>All minorities deserve protection, regardless of their color. I favor all minorities and believe all should be protected. All people should be treated equally, regardless of minority status.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>… but <span class=gmaildefault>Wyoming is lily white, </span>only 2.47%<span class=gmaildefault> of the population is Native American and 1.8% black…<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Why is that relevant please? Do you have DNA evidence to support that claim?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…I am quite certain that isn't true<span class=gmaildefault>,</span> but if it was that would <span class=gmaildefault>mean </span>a <span class=gmaildefault>c</span>oalition<span class=gmaildefault> of</span> states is a bad idea <span class=gmaildefault>a</span>nd a coalition of people would work much better<span class=gmaildefault>…<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>So we are told in the communist dictatorships. The brutal communist dictatorship which launched the covid plague and threatened anyone who leaked information about covid goes out of its way to differentiate itself from the Republic of China by calling itself the People’s Republic of China. The People’s Republic of China, headed by President Xi attempted to cover up the virus, which enabled its murderous spread across the planet.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>If the majority rules, the minorities will not like the rules the majority imposes upon them. Too often it turns to two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for dinner. The American system is great.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span class=gmaildefault><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>> </span></span><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>it protects minority views in less populated places<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…Even if you accept the very dubious proposition that rich people should have more voting rights then poor people that still makes no sense…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>I don’t hold the view that rich people should have more voting rights than the poor. The minority of voters who live in less populated areas are not richer than their more crowded counterparts. One need not be rich to live in Wyoming.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…because land ownership is just one of many forms of wealth…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Sure but one need not own land to live in Wyoming.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…Why does how much land one person owns give him 66.7 times more voting heft…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>It doesn’t. The landowner and non-landowner’s vote counts the same everywhere in that state.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>… but another person's expensive Manhattan penthouse or gold or S&P 500 stocks does not similarly enhance his citizenship?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>It doesn’t. The penthouse/gold/500 owner’s vote counts the same as the non-owner everywhere in that state.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span class=gmaildefault><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>> </span></span><i><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Regarding Wyoming: they are smarter on average than we are. </span></i><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…There is an existence proof <span class=gmaildefault>that</span> they are not<span class=gmaildefault>.</span> <span class=gmaildefault>I</span>n 2016 Wyoming we<span class=gmaildefault>nt</span> for Trump<span class=gmaildefault>. QED</span> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>So smarter people… eh, do explain please? <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Their average SAT scores… on second thought, never mind. Any time the name of a politician or a party is mentioned in the context of science, the credibility of that post drops by half (spike-ism (free of charge (you’re welcome.)))<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span class=gmaildefault><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>> </span></span><i><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Have some respect. </span></i><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>>…From this day forward I solemnly swear to give Trump supporters all the respect they deserve<span class=gmaildefault>.</span> John K Clark<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Heh. OK, sure. You reserve the right to assign anyone you wish to that status I presume.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>spike<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></div></body></html>