<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">Thanks. At my age it is good to get some feedback. bill w</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 2:27 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">That makes sense. <div><br></div><div>SR<br><div dir="ltr"><br>On Jul 6, 2020, at 1:50 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">How is it not -functionally- the same? What does that knowledge now give us the power to do that we couldn’t do before?</span><font color="#888888" style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br><br><div dir="ltr">SR Ballard</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div>Functionally it may very well be the same in the ways we act towards fanatical behaviors in the 'real world'. What is different is trying to understand where it is coming from for, for one example, therapy for them. Outside of therapy I would never try to bring unconscious things to consciousness in another person - none of my business. But if the underlying causes are different, it may let you predict towards whom or what the fanatical behavior is aimed. If the unconscious mind is hung up on religious issues you may see the fanatic burn churches, or attack or even kill 'sinners'. If on homosexual issues you may see the fanatical behaviors aimed toward homosexuals ("Let's roll some queers this weekend." - something I have actually heard said). One of our goals is to predict behavior, and if we know nothing of the underlying causes, we cannot do that, since the overt actions, though aimed in different directions, may be the same. In fact, a fanatic may have both of these causes in his unconsciousness because of what he read in Leviticus. bill w</div></font></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 12:27 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div>I don’t think you understand what I meant at all.</div><div><br></div>I’m not telling you there isn’t a difference, I’m saying I don’t see one, and I’m asking you, what makes it different?<div><br></div><div>Okay, knowing that a large sub-group of anti-gay protestors are themselves repressed homosexuals, (and I agree with this, anecdotally), how does that change our approach to them? When we see westboro baptist, do we cry and quietly pull them aside and say “I’m so sorry you’re gay”? That doesn’t really seem like a winning strategy.</div><div><br></div><div>Knowing that they are overcompensating, what does that change? How is it not -functionally- the same? What does that knowledge now give us the power to do that we couldn’t do before?<br><br><div dir="ltr">SR Ballard</div><div dir="ltr"><br>On Jul 6, 2020, at 10:33 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Now you are telling a psychologist that the basic cause of the behaviors doesn't matter, only the effects. Right? How are we going to understand people with an attitude like that? bill w</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 9:45 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">I don’t see an appreciable difference in relation to fanaticism. If someone is violently anti-gay because they are gay, or because they feel they have been emasculated, what is the functional difference? It’s still fanaticism. <br><br><div dir="ltr">SR Ballard</div><div dir="ltr"><br>On Jul 5, 2020, at 7:35 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">SR, what you are describing is called compensation. What I described is called overcompensation, in which the conscious and unconscious things are the same: the 100 lb weakling becomes a strong man. bill w</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 6:10 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">Oh, I understand the fanaticism. I was a bit of a fanatic at one point.<div><br></div><div>It is as was described. You have a deep-seated fear you are covering up. </div><div><br></div><div>But the fear doesn’t have to match the action. Like if you’re strongly religious it doesn’t have to be from religious doubt, it could be a doubt about your physical health. You could be strongly anti-gay because you have an eating disorder. And so on. </div><div><br></div><div>A classic is anti-gay because of sexual abuse of a boy by a man.<br><br><div dir="ltr">SR Ballard</div><div dir="ltr"><br>On Jul 5, 2020, at 11:56 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;text-indent:0.5in">Eschew taking extremist views. There is too much risk of realizing someday that you have invested most of your life fighting passionately for the wrong side.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">spike</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">I don't think that any of us can understand the fervor of these people. They have to go all out or they will punish themselves for wimpy efforts. In other words, they are driven to extreme positions. Why didn't some of the people who were burned at the stake recant and live longer? Because they could not live with themselves if they did that. I feel quite sure that that was the case with Giordano Bruno. bill w</p></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 10:44 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US"><div><p class="MsoNormal">Excellent post BillW. I will leave it all in there without trimming a word of it.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">I have long suspected extremists in anything are a mixture of people struggling to talk themselves out of their own self-doubt, plus false flaggers, plus people who just like taking some extreme position.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">My view on it is this (free spike-ism (you’re welcome.)):<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:0.5in">Eschew taking extremist views. There is too much risk of realizing someday that you have invested most of your life fighting passionately for the wrong side.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">spike<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, July 5, 2020 8:25 AM<br><b>To:</b> ExI chat list <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> William Flynn Wallace <<a href="mailto:foozler83@gmail.com" target="_blank">foozler83@gmail.com</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> [ExI] fanaticism, more<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">Fanaticism is said to have many sociological roots, and you can find those all over the web. But I didn’t find much on psychological causes, so here’s a few thoughts:</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">The obsessive is capable of making very fine distinctions. One book about it features a man who discovers he is 1/32 Negroid and he is subsequently ostracized. (Kingblood Royal -Sinclair Lewis). This will also make the person a bit of a purist - things just have to be a certain way and even slight deviations from it are not permitted.</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">If you pair this with paranoia, then deviations can be imagined rather than real. Anything slightly indicative becomes a certainty. If you pair those with religious content, you get a person who will try to make others believe and act the same as him, even if they have to be forced, like Islamists and Christians did a few centuries ago. Or just killed.</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">A recent study of people who were extremely antihomosexual were found to have unconscious tendencies to it themselves, just as many people imagined that they did.</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">A further factor is overcompensation and reaction formation: if you are a latent homosexual but do not realize it you are very likely to be a powerful, even violent antihomosexual. The inner feelings have to be powerfully defended against by conscious feelings of the opposite (which is often called reaction formation).</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">So many fanatics are not what they think they are. If religious, then the strong doubts about the validity of the religion have to be powerfully opposed by the conscious opposites. Does this mean that some of the people ranting about racism are unconscious racists? Of course it does.</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">bill w</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
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