<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face="comic sans ms, sans-serif">dylan wrote - </font><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">, The Swerve is a fascinating book about the rediscovery and preservation of Lucretius's masterful Epicurean poem. </span><font face="comic sans ms, sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">I second that recommendation   bill w</span></font></div><div class="gmail-yj6qo gmail-ajU" style="outline:none;padding:10px 0px;width:22px;margin:2px 0px 0px"><br class="gmail-Apple-interchange-newline"></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 3:03 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">For those interested, Sam Harris, has thought a lot about this topic.  He doesn't believe in free will and has a similar attitude to John.   His book Free Will is a start, but it permeates all of his thought. <div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">For those who want a non-scientifc way out of this conundrum, read Lucretius's De Rerum Natura.   He posits a swerve at the atomic level (Greek/Roman atoms, not ours), that allows for free will. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">As an aside, The Swerve is a fascinating book about the rediscovery and preservation of Lucretius's masterful Epicurean poem. </div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 3:50 PM John Clark via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 2:03 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:</span><br></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><i><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> </span>I’m sorry but if free will is wrong then there is no crime or guilt. No motivation. People cannot change themselves, they are fully at the whim of outside forces and cannot be held accountable. </i></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="4">Sure they can. </font></span><font size="4">The only reason to hold anyone accountable for <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">d</span>oing a bad thing is to prevent <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">m</span>ore bad things from happening in the future.<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> That's justice, doing more than that, making an evil doer suffer just for the joy of watching him suffer is vengeance. </span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">The threat of punishment <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">is</span> just one more outside force pushing people in the direction of not hurting other people<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">, and I like that direction. I don't like vengeance.</span></span></font></div><div><font size="4"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span></span></font></div><div><font size="4"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> John K Clark</span></span></font></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
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