<div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, 11 May 2021 at 11:10, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><br><div>Yes, but again, let's throw out the irrelevant complexity about what the person is reporting, whether he is reporting it mistakenly, being forced or whatever. Let's just focus on the facts of the matter of the quality of the experience. it is ether a fact that the experience is redness, or the experiences is greenness. The facts of the matter are dependent on the quality of the substrate which the subject is experiencing, as knowledge of the strawberry. Everything we care about is simply the quality of the experience, which must remain factually consistent, over space and time. If the quality of the substrate of the experience changes, this must be notice. If not, not noticed, either of which the subject must be aware.</div></div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Yes, that’s consistent with everything I have ever said, except for the part about “the quality of the substrate which the subject is experiencing”, because I think it is possible for the substrate to change but the experience to remain the same.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="auto"></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 7:01 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, 11 May 2021 at 10:52, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 6:26 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>On Tue, 11 May 2021 at 10:13, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">I didn't say anything about glutamate, just the quality of their knowledge. I recall asking if you agreed with the following statement from our video, and you said you did agree:<br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr"><span id="m_-7961964300590166366gmail-m_-111188109570999795m_-6966355208860678405gmail-m_9188171032534493062m_3509947253867951177gmail-docs-internal-guid-6e06754c-7fff-ec07-90ab-e3182c173823"><ol style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><li dir="ltr" style="list-style-type:lower-alpha;font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;margin-left:36pt"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:12pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-size:11pt;background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">There is no interpretation of a quale, the quality of our conscious knowledge is just a fact.</span></p></li><li dir="ltr" style="list-style-type:lower-alpha;font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;margin-left:36pt"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="font-size:11pt;background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">It might be a physical fact, or spiritual fact, or functional fact, depending on our preferred yet to be falsified theory. But in all cases the quality of our knowledge remains a </span><span style="font-size:11pt;background-color:transparent;font-weight:700;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">fact about reality</span><span style="font-size:11pt;background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">.</span></p></li></ol></span></div><div>If that is a fact, over space and time, as you agreed. Then what each person's consciousness knowledge of the strawberry is qualitatively like is important, and we must be able to recognize when at least one pixel factually changes from one quality to the other. And we must be able to say the two are qualitatively different, as they are reporting.</div></div></div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Yes, I agree that it is a fact that one person experiences (is conscious of, has the quale of) redness and another experiences greenness. If the qualia invert due to some change in the brain, then the subject may report that they have inverted, or at least that something looks a bit different. Even if the subject does not report a difference, we might be able to observe a difference by subjection him to colour testing. But if the subject notices no difference despite going through extensive testing, and we can observe no difference with the testing either, then it dies not make sense to say that the qualia have changed. Do you agree with that?</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, and let's get rid of this "looks a <b>BIT</b> different" stuff. Let's just keep things simple so we don't get distracted with things that don't matter. The pixel either has a redness quality, ,or a greenness quality. If it is a fact that the quality of the knowledge changes, or if the quality doesn't change, over space and time, the person both must be aware of those facts, and they must be able to report those facts of the matter. In other words, the quality of the person's experience of that pixel is dependent on it's particular colourness facts, consistently over space and time, and they will know if they do or don't change, over space and time.</div></div></div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Yes, so if we make some physical change in the brain and the subject does not notice any difference at all, then that physical change in the brain has not altered the qualia. The other possibility is that it has altered the qualia, the subject notices, but is somehow forced to say that there is no difference; but that seems absurd. Even more absurd is to say that the qualia have changed but the subject does not notice, because that would render the idea of qualia meaningless.</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="auto"></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr">Stathis Papaioannou</div>
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</blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Stathis Papaioannou</div>