<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:#000000">In some jury trials a judge can decide to split the cause: like the company was 60% responsible and the person was 40% responsible. That's splitting the determining factors. bill w</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 8:39 AM SR Ballard <<a href="mailto:sen.otaku@gmail.com">sen.otaku@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">So they’re determined except that they aren’t. That’s not very clear. If they’re determined, like Pavlov’s dog, we only have the illusion of choice. <div><br></div><div>If by “determined”, you mean influenced, then sure, I’d say that free will and determinism are compatible. Otherwise I think it’s a bucket of hogwash. </div><div><br></div><div>If people really can’t ever control their actions, we need to radically change society, but we can’t, because everything is inevitable. Or maybe we will, because it’s inevitable. <br><br><div dir="ltr">SR Ballard</div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Jul 17, 2021, at 10:00 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <<a href="mailto:stathisp@gmail.com" target="_blank">stathisp@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 at 11:53, William Flynn Wallace <<a href="mailto:foozler83@gmail.com" target="_blank">foozler83@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Your unconscious mind alerts you to the fact that you could really use some ice cream right now, so you get up and get it. You do have a choice as to whether you will get up and get it. If you do, you can say that your impulse caused your fetching the dessert - your hunger for that determined your actions. And involved a choice. This is internal. If you put something away in the freezer and your eye hits the ice cream, you may grab it and take it with you. Not the determining factor is external but you still had a choice. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Now take Pavlov's dog: after conditioning the dog salivates to the bell. It has no choice. The dog and us cannot control our autonomic nervous systems. Here determinism is beyond our control - no choice. bill w</div></div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Yes, but the error is in saying that you don’t have a free choice if the choice is determined. All choices are determined, but some choices are determined by reflexes or by someone holding a gun to your head, and those are not free, while other choices are determined by what you want to do, and those are free.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)" dir="auto"></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Jul 17, 2021 at 8:32 PM SR Ballard <<a href="mailto:sen.otaku@gmail.com" target="_blank">sen.otaku@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">Determined means you have no choice. It’s a foregone conclusion. That’s not a choice at all if it was impossible for you to pick something different. <div><br><div dir="ltr">SR Ballard</div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Jul 17, 2021, at 7:22 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <<a href="mailto:stathisp@gmail.com" target="_blank">stathisp@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 at 00:04, William Flynn Wallace <<a href="mailto:foozler83@gmail.com" target="_blank">foozler83@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small">they could be determined by your preferences, values, knowledge of the world and so on. You would behave in a chaotic and purposeless way </span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small"><font face="comic sans ms, sans-serif">I think that's a big non sequitur. If my behaviors and thoughts were determined by my values, etc. It would be chaos? My values lead to no purpose? Doesn't make any sense to me. bill w</font></span></div></div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Sorry, there was a typo in my original reply. Libertarian free will requires that your actions be undetermined, but if your actions were undetermined they could NOT be determined by any psychological factors such as your preferences, values, knowledge of the world and so on. So this is a bad definition of free will: fortunately no-one has it, no-one thinks they have it, and no-one wants to have it. People who say that they believe they have it usually don’t understand the meaning of the words they are using, such as “undetermined”.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)" dir="auto"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small"><font face="comic sans ms, sans-serif"></font></span></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 16, 2021 at 9:39 PM Stathis Papaioannou <<a href="mailto:stathisp@gmail.com" target="_blank">stathisp@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"></blockquote></div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 at 06:30, William Flynn Wallace <<a href="mailto:foozler83@gmail.com" target="_blank">foozler83@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)">There has to be at least some determinism. Free Will, whatever it may be, cannot prevent the environment from making changes in us, like solar rays causing a mutation in us, or some toxin giving us cancer. These things can also affect us mentally - some toxins will lower IQ or make us depressed. Free will can come in in our choices as to what toxins to expose ourselves to, such as staying inside and wearing SPF of 50 when we go out. Some are unavoidable. bill w</div></div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Determinism is not exclusive of psychological factors. If your actions were undetermined, it would mean that they could be determined by your preferences, values, knowledge of the world and so on. You would behave in a chaotic and purposeless way and would be unable to function or survive. This is an absurd way to define free will, which is why most philosophers reject it.</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)" dir="auto"></div></div></blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr">Stathis Papaioannou</div>
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