<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:#000000">Somebody stole your girlfriend. Are you going to spend the rest of your life trying to get even with that person? Why cause yourself all that grief? So you find him and punch him out. Did that satisfy you in the long run? I think that's adolescent behavior. Your former girlfriend now thinks that it was her lucky day when she left you. Is that OK with you? Forgiveness has to be permanent - for your sake. Some don't like it because they think that it resets everything to zero. Nope. Those doctors, now certainly dead, still were worthy of revilement from me after I forgave them. But it was a cold thing: I didn't burn any calories hating them. bill w</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 11:44 AM Brent Allsop <<a href="mailto:brent.allsop@gmail.com">brent.allsop@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><br><div>Thanks for those great thoughts, William. I didn't know that about your parents. Is that story written up, somewhere?</div><div><br></div><div>I do think forgiveness is great, but I consider it only temporary. For me it's all about a full restitution, with interest, to achieve perfect justice. All vengeance does is make more restitution work necessary before perfect justice can be achieved. I have faith that we are heading in that direction and that some day we will get there. Most people will never give up till we do get there. That's what enables me to accept forgiveness, at least temporarily. One might considered this way of acting as selfish, because the people that give today, will be the inheritors in the end, as in the first shall be last, and visa versa.</div><div><br></div><div>Always forgive, never forget.</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 10:09 AM William Flynn Wallace <<a href="mailto:foozler83@gmail.com" target="_blank">foozler83@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)">I taught courses in Learning for over 30 years and I can testify that punishment, of the positive kind ( as opposed to the negative kind, where a response results in the withdrawal of something good, like taking a toy away) has so many unfortunate side effects, often worse than the behavior being punished, that I would never recommend it in child raising unless the behavior being punished is actually dangerous to the person or to others. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)">I would love to have vengeance against the doctors that killed both my parents, but I could not. You have to have very deep pockets to sue a medical person, and of course I didn't. So I have to forgive them to get rid of the depressions and grudges I held. I think forgiving shows moral superiority. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Putting a person in prison is a case that reinforces that notion. The only positive thing it does is to keep someone off the streets for awhile. The horrible conditions in prisons here in Mississippi only strengthen hostility of the prisoners to society in general and conservatives are happy to keep cutting prison budgets so they can suffer even more from clogged toilets, terrible food, and more. Sensory deprivation, aka total isolation, is cruel and unusual punishment but often used. Result: prison riots that more than occasionally kill some inmates. And who cares about them? Then they are turned loose to do it again. Some people can be rehabilitated. Some can get off their addictions, but they get no help here. No money for programs like these.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)">So - vengeance against lawbreakers is misplaced in many ways, but of course conservatives would not dream of 'coddling' criminals. Creating pain and suffering are their only weapons and they are simply not working, as recidivism statistics reveal. Studies of positive punishment of children are similar: kids grow up worse if the only discipline is physical - numerous studies on that. In poor, esp. in minority communities, kids learn that they have done something wrong when they are yelled at and hit, and yelling and hitting them becomes the only thing that gets their attention. This is why minority kids act up in schools - no one can yell or hit them, so they don't take anything seriously.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Try forgiveness, even of poor drivers. It will improve your mental health and overall attitude towards living.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)">This really requires a much longer post with added references to studies, but maybe it's a start. bill w</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 9:25 AM John Clark <<a href="mailto:johnkclark@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnkclark@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 9:33 AM Brent Allsop <<a href="mailto:brent.allsop@gmail.com" target="_blank">brent.allsop@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span><br></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><i><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> </span>Hi John,</i></div><div><i>Seems to me morality can be based on some, what seem to me to be necessary fundamental truths, like existence or living is better than dying,</i></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><font size="4">Usually yeah, but I think oblivion would be preferable to intense unrelenting pain.<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </span> </font></div><div><font size="4"> </font></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><i> <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> </span>knowing is better than not knowing (i.e. "find out more about how the universe works",</i></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><font size="4">That would be my opinion, but I don't know how to logically prove it. I don't think there's any chance of ever developing a morality that is both complete and self consistent since it's impossible to do that even for something as straightforward as arithmetic. </font><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="4"><br></font><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><i><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> </span>social is better than anti social...</i></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><font size="4">Some people would <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">just </span>prefer to be alone, I don't think that is either good or evil<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> it's just a preference, and there's no disputing matters of taste. </span><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </span> </font></div><div><font size="4"> </font></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><i><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> </span>This is why evolution towards that which is better is a logically necessity, in any sufficiently complex system.</i></div><div><i>The opposite of evolution is logically impossible, right?</i></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><font size="4">It's improbable Evolution will precisely retrace its steps, but that doesn't mean a human would conclude the end results will always be an improvement. Evolution's goal is not to increase complexity or to become more intelligent but to get more genes into the next generation by outcompeting the competition. And sometimes that results in something simpler, dumber and more primitive; for example that is often seen in the evolution of non-parasites into parasites<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">.</span></font></div><div class="gmail_quote"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="4"></font></span><div><font size="4">J<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">ohn K Clark</span> </font></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div> </div></div></div>
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