<div dir="ltr"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">Hi Stathis,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">Yes, that is true, but what does that have to
do with the facts I’m referring to?  Surely
you are not arguing that the current abstract systems, like a tesla automobile,
which, if it does know its own color, is representing that knowledge of its own color
with a world like ‘red’ (doesn’t matter what is representing those ones and
zeros, anywhere in the set of tesla parts, but you must have a different transducing dictionary for each different part that is representing it), and that there is
no redness or greenness qualities anywhere in any such current abstract system?</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><br></span></p></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Feb 9, 2022 at 9:39 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 at 03:17, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 7:28 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On 08/02/2022 01:46, BillK wrote:<br>
> If a mind can be run on hardware -<br>
<br>
Well, it's the hardware we have now that has made minds possible. What <br>
is the brain, if not hardware? Ok, it's squishy, but that's not what we <br>
mean when we distinguish between hardware and software. You could say <br>
"non-organic hardware", but who's to say that we have to use non-organic <br>
hardware to construct future mind substrates? Polymer brains might well <br>
be possible. It could be that going down a silicon and electrons route <br>
wouldn't be such a good idea, given how vulnerable that would be to <br>
cosmic rays and such.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It is a fact of the matter that all information in our current "non-organic" systems is abstract, like the word "red", composed of strings of ones and zeros.  These are purposely abstracted away from any physical properties (i.e. wavelengths of light or the verry different colorness qualities like redness) representing them.  You can't know what any of those abstract words like red represent without a dictionary.  We on the other hand, representing information, like knowledge of red things, directly on phenomenal qualities of "squishy" stuff like redness and greenness.  The redness quality your squishy stuff uses to represent red knowledge with is your definition of red.  It is a fact that my brain could be engineered such that my redness would be like your greenness, both of which we call red, as illustrated here:</div><div><br></div><div><img src="cid:ii_kzfr45430" alt="3_robots_tiny.png" style="width: 320px; max-width: 100%;"><br></div><div><br></div><div>The only difference in the first two is a red green signal inverter in the optic nerve, and a redness/greenness inverted dictionary.</div><div><br></div><div>My question is, do you currently disagree with any of these demonstrably true facts?  And if not why do you continue to completely ignore facts like this, when you talk about "squishy stuff"?</div></div></div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">You don’t know that what you call abstract qualities and physical qualities do not both give phenomenal consciousness.</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="auto"></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr">Stathis Papaioannou</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
extropy-chat mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</a><br>
</blockquote></div>