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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> William Flynn Wallace <foozler83@gmail.com> <br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [ExI] genetics<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#202122'>from Wikipedia - Very few species have passed the MSR test. Species that have include the </span><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black'><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_ape" title="Great ape"><span style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0645AD'>great apes</span></a></span><span style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#202122'>, a single </span><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black'><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiatic_elephant" title="Asiatic elephant"><span style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0645AD'>Asiatic elephant</span></a></span><span style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#202122'>, </span><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black'><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_(fish)" title="Ray (fish)"><span style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0645AD'>Rays</span></a></span><span style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#202122'>, </span><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black'><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin" title=Dolphin><span style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0645AD'>dolphins</span></a></span><span style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#202122'>, </span><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black'><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orca" title=Orca><span style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0645AD'>orcas</span></a></span><span style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#202122'>, the </span><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black'><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_magpie" title="Eurasian magpie"><span style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0645AD'>Eurasian magpie</span></a></span><span style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#202122'>, and the </span><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black'><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleaner_wrasse" title="Cleaner wrasse"><span style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0645AD'>cleaner wrasse</span></a></span><span style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#202122'>. A wide range of species has been reported to fail the test, including several species of </span><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black'><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey" title=Monkey><span style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0645AD'>monkeys</span></a></span><span style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#202122'>, </span><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black'><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_panda" title="Giant panda"><span style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0645AD'>giant pandas</span></a></span><span style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#202122'>, and </span><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black'><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_lion" title="Sea lion"><span style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0645AD'>sea lions</span></a></span><span style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#202122'>.</span><sup id="gmail-cite_ref-3"><span style='font-size:12.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#202122'><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test#cite_note-3"><span style='color:#0645AD'>[3]</span></a><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test#cite_note-4"><span style='color:#0645AD'>[4</span></a></span></sup><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>>…<span style='color:black'>Spike, I don't know the criterion for passing the mirror test. Certainly the puppy understands something, but also certainly does not have the brains of the animals above. bill </span>w<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>Ja I am puzzled by it. We look at beasts by species rather than by other criteria, such as breed and individual generally. With dogs we have messed with nature so much, they bear very little resemblance to the wolves from which they descend.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>I have seen other dogs with mirrors, where they don’t seem to notice their reflection or don’t care. But it isn’t entirely clear that they are failing to do the image processing, or if they know that is their reflection and go on with life.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>I have seen both dogs and cats watch TV or computer screens, definitely doing image processing. I have seen dogs on zoom meetings recognize themselves. I don’t recall seeing a cat do that, but perhaps they do, or some do.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>I have seen birds attack their own reflection for extended periods, never quite getting it. In Florida we had sand hill cranes, which can be five feet tall, come up to the house and peck away at the windows. They never actually broke one, but they make a hell of a racket doing that. I had half a mind to go out there and teach them to not do that, delivering that short lecture along with my assistant professor, Mister Twelve Gage.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'>spike<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div><div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></body></html>