<div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div>Hi Jason,</div>logical/information/mathematical stuff is all abstract. Like the word 'red' you can't know what it means, without a dictionary.<div>Redness is just a physical fact. a property of something in nature. It is simply a fact that your brain uses whatever has that redness quality to represent your knowledge of red things with. Your redness is your definition of red.<br><div>The limiting factor is how many intrinsic coolness qualities we can discover in nature.</div><div>Let's assume there is a new coolness quality we discover which nobody has ever experienced before. let's call it Grue.</div></div><div>Then we can computationally bind it into your consciousness.<br></div><div>Then we throw the switch, at which point you say: "oh THAT is what Grue is like" and you now have your dictionary for 'Grue'.</div><div>Then you augment your eye to detect the new wavelength you want to represent with Grue, and wire it up to represent information collected about that particular wavelength.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div> </div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 6:11 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">Are there infinitely possible primary colors, given there are infinitely many possible organizations of brains?<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">There're colorblind people and most mammals with two primary colors, primates and fish with three, birds and some tetrachromat humans with four, and I think there's some shrimp with 16. If there's no fundamental limit to the number of primary colors a mind can perceive, then are primary colors physical/chemical/neurological properties, or are they logical/informational/mathematical properties? I lean towards the latter grouping.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Jason</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 18, 2022, 7:50 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="auto"><div>Hi Darin,</div><div><br></div><div>When say "colors" are you talking about properties of things that reflect a particular pattern of light, the properties of the light, or the intrinsic qualities you brain uses to represent conscious knowledge of red things? All very different things.</div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 18, 2022, 4:17 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">All objects with a specific property are made of arrangements of things that lack that property.<div><br></div><div>Colors are formed by particular arrangements of atoms and particles that are intrinsically colorless.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 4:09 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><br><div>Yes, any language that uses only one abstract word, for everything that represents 'red' makes that language qualia blind or unable to represent different intrinsic physical qualities which may be representing red.</div><div>All of our peer reviewed physics, in it's entirety does this. so none of it can model different qualities like redness and greenness.</div><div>That is why we use the term 'redness' or colorness intrinsic qualities, to distinguish from red and color intrinsic qualities.</div><div>Something is 'red' if it reflects or emits red light, it has a color.</div><div>Redness, is something entirely different, it is a colorness quality. An intrinsic quality out of which your consciousness is composed.</div><div><br></div><div>A big part of consciousness is the ability to computationally bind elemental qualities like redness and greenness together, to enabl3e computation like: I (represented by something in your brain) intend to eat that strawberry, represented by redness quality, also in your brain.</div><div><br></div><div>Adrian claimed my definition is circular.</div><div><br></div><div>No it isn't circular. If we experimentally demonstrated that our description of glutamate, reacting in a synapse, is your redness, and glycine is your greenness, then these would be saying the same thing.</div><div><br>objective version: My glutamate knowledge is like your glycine knowledge, both of which we call red.</div><div>Subjective version: My redness knowledge is like your greenness knowledge, both of which we call red.</div><div><br></div><div>Just because our brain seems be gray (we represent out knowledge of it with something that has a greyness quality) doesn't mean al that stuff is actually gray.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Another important part of all this, is there are two ways to gain knowledge.</div><div>We can see colors, (can be mistaken, if you get the dictionary wrong) and we directly apprehend colorness qualities (can't be mistaken), representing our knowledge of colored things, the final result of color perception.</div><div>For more detail see our <a href="https://canonizer.com/videos/consciousness/?chapter=differentiate_reality_knowledge" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">Distinguishing between reality and knowledge of reality</a> chapter of our video.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 3:48 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 at 08:38, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)">I think that what you see is what you get and that there is no intrinsic color of anything. I don't even know what intrinsic means in this context. bill w</div></div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I think Brent means the experience of the colour, or colour qualia, as opposed to description of the processes that lead to the experience.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)" dir="auto"></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 4:21 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><br><div>Happy color festival, everyone.</div><div><br></div><div>Do you guys realize, nobody knows the true intrinsic color of anything? All we know is the colors things seem to be.</div><div><br></div><div>See <a rel="noreferrer noreferrer">my answer to a question on color on Quora</a>.</div><div><br></div><div>P.S. Thank you Stathis, for your upvote. That is HUGE for me.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div>
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