<html xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:DengXian;
panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"\@DengXian";
panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink="#954F72" style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>I concur that dreams are a very powerful natural way to achieve some of the effects people are looking for with psychedelics. In the past I was a lucid dreamer. For those who are unaware, lucid dreaming is the phenomenon of becoming conscious while asleep. A lucid dreamer has the ability to fully control all aspects of the dream realm: the physics, visuals, sensations, etc. Some people have been able to generate the sensations of extra limbs, 360 degree vision, or even transform into animals complete with all the novel aspects of the animal such as heightened smell. The brain is flexible indeed while asleep and the ability to become conscious while dreaming allows one to tap into the full features of the mind that is inaccessible in waking life.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>I mentioned that I <i>was</i> a lucid dreamer. I stopped because I couldn’t handle what I saw and experienced when I lucid dreamed. The inner depths of the mind can be absolutely terrifying. I encourage those who can handle it to master it. It can enrich your life beyond what you can imagine at this moment.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div style='mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0in'><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Monday, March 28, 2022 6:50 PM<br><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">ExI chat list</a><br><b>Cc: </b><a href="mailto:atymes@gmail.com">Adrian Tymes</a><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [ExI] video which changed my perspective</p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 10:14 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:</p></div><div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>But for something like psychedelics, pleasure isn't really the point. The point is a novel sensory/learning experience that specifically has long-term positive effects.</p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Uh huh. A quick google on "lsd long term effects" brought up multiple references that strongly disagree. Listed symptoms of long term LSD use (to take just one of the more well known examples) include:</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>* Diarrhea<br>* Restlessness or agitation<br>* Vomiting or nausea<br>* Irregular or rapid heartbeat<br>* Fever or high body temperature<br>* Seizures<br>* Hallucinations<br>* Loss of coordination<br>* Rapid changes in blood pressure</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Many of these may indeed be novel, by definition, to those who have never experienced them before. But they strike me as neither learning experiences (save for, "don't do this again") nor positive effects.</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Maybe the hallucinations can be tapped to drive learning - but those who can do that, can use non-psychedelic-induced pathways without the more unambiguously negative effects.</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>While the trip could be confusing or difficult, the aftereffects are the real meat. In that sense they are almost opposite to alcohol.</p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Insofar as the effects include reduced mental and physical capacity, they may differ in the details but are close enough to alcohol's.</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> </p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Taking a psychedelic is like visiting the most unbelievable museum, using your brain in ways you did not think possible.</p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Do you really not believe that this can be done without using psychedelics at all?</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>Every human being can dream, man. Start by dreaming. Let them guide you toward these "impossible" ways, close enough that you can leap the rest of the distance.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>