<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:#000000">Whether an abstraction such as intelligence or will power exists is entirely up to how we want to define the term. I could say the same thing about demon possession or souls. Show me how to objectively measure it and I can accept it into science. Then we can relate it to brain functions. So far, I can still see only a circular concept. "Willpower is what is happening when we make ourselves do something." That is simply an embarrassment. bill w</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 9:17 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div dir="ltr">Are you suggesting that willpower isn't a neurological phenomenon? I don't even know how to address something so inane besides throwing some papers at you<div><a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4744643/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4744643/</a><br></div><div><a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5678016/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5678016/</a><br></div><div><a href="https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0258884" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0258884</a><br></div><div><a href="https://oxford.universitypressscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780190267278.001.0001/acprof-9780190267278-chapter-18" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://oxford.universitypressscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780190267278.001.0001/acprof-9780190267278-chapter-18</a><br></div><div><a href="https://scholar.harvard.edu/kreimanlab/publications/neural-correlates-consciousness-perception-and-volition" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://scholar.harvard.edu/kreimanlab/publications/neural-correlates-consciousness-perception-and-volition</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>In short--yes, obviously, volition happens in the brain. Willpower is the ability to make yourself do something. That even is manifest in the tissue of the brain itself. Yes, it can be measured, though we may not completely agree on how, or have the right tools to do it perfectly yet. But it is clearly a neurophysical phenomenon. To believe anything else is some weird anti-scientific boomer bullshit, to speak frankly.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 6:55 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Will, I don't see any interruption in an addict's ability to control voluntary behavior - do you? Aphasia, ataxia etc. - all inabilities we understand somewhat and all not amenable to voluntary changes. Those are not good comparisons to addiction. As for willpower, that is a circular concept: if a person can do something or stop something, we say he has willpower. If he doesn't we say he has little will power. Totally circular. If you are suggesting that willpower can be measured some other, valid, way, and that can be traced to brain changes, then we have a different discussion. bill w</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 12:12 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">I heartily disagree with this. Would you say someone with aphasia won't, not can't, speak? You act as if voluntary action is a given. Voluntary action requires a neurological event to take place. If the event cannot take place because the brain is broken, the motion CAN'T happen. Human will is not magic, it's a neurological action and it can be broken or slow or wonky just like any neurological action. </div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Apr 6, 2022, 11:35 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Addiction is not the same as having an irresistible impulse, a term created by defense lawyers). Such an impulse doesn't not exist, in my opinion. Yes, you can't stop things like vomiting. Truly that is involuntary.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)">But can't stop lifting your arm to your mouth to eat or smoke? Nope. Not involuntary. Not close.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)">So addicts are acting through voluntary behaviors. They can stop them any time they want to, as I did for smoking and drinking alcohol, but of course they don't want to. (Let's not even bother with 'gumption' and 'willpower').</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)">I agree that withdrawal can be nasty. I had that once for Tramadol when the doctor screwed up (more likely his nurse). It was bad but not terrible. Ditto for smoking. I had no withdrawal from alcohol.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)">So my point is that attaching the word 'addict' to a person seems to make us think that he is quite different from us, and he simply isn't. He can quit at any time.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)">And calling a person a shopping addict or sex addict is simply absurd.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)">The psychotics I have known were in full control of their behavior, but not their thinking (delusions and hallucinations). No irresistible impulses here though the disorder we used to call hebephrenic schizophrenia might qualify.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)">I am not sure that there is a good use for the term addict. Maybe to describe people who do something too much, and that's all.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)">So - let's call addictive behavior what it is. Voluntary. Addicts are people who won't, not can't, quit. bill w</div></div>
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