<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small"> What makes you wake up </span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small">believing you are human after you have dreamt you were a hummingbird?</span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small"><font face="comic sans ms, sans-serif"> I did dream during a childhood operation performed on ether - two separate occasion. In one I was one of the Three LIttle PIgs. We were eaten by the wolf but ate his cheeks and climbed out. The other was riding a lightning bolt down to Earth. To my right was another lightning bolt ridden b the Devil, who was vowing to get me. </font></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small"><font face="comic sans ms, sans-serif"><br></font></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face="comic sans ms, sans-serif">Just because my conscious mind is asleep doesn't mean all of it is inhibited.</font></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face="comic sans ms, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small">> A belief, like anything else,</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small">> is a product of our brains.</span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small"><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small">"Like anything else?" Do you not believe in facts or simple objective </span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small">truths? Do you not believe in the existence of trees that you do not </span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small">hear fall? There are beliefs that fit the facts and those that don't. </span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small">The that mind is not an abstraction of the material reality is actually<font face="comic sans ms, sans-serif"> </font></span><font face="comic sans ms, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small"><font face="comic sans ms, sans-serif">?? Yeah, I believe all of that. Waiting for you to finish the sentence.</font></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small"><font face="comic sans ms, sans-serif"><br></font></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small">Your brain and my brain are doing the same shit. But </span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small">your mind and my mind are clearly not the same. What distinguishes </span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small">you, Professor, if not your mind? <font face="comic sans ms, sans-serif">I hope my mind is distinguished. Everyone's mind is different in many ways , largely through programming. Mostly do not understand your comment.</font></span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small"><font face="comic sans ms, sans-serif"><br></font></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small"><font face="comic sans ms, sans-serif"><br></font></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small">Then why is anesthesia not permanent? If loss of brain-function is </span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small">loss of mind and self, then why do not most patients not die or forget </span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small">themselves forever on the operating table? <font face="comic sans ms, sans-serif">I also do not understand this. There is no brain damage under anesthesia, only inhibition of some brain centers, which stops when the drug is stopped. bill w</font></span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small"><font face="comic sans ms, sans-serif"><br></font></span></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Apr 24, 2022 at 1:20 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
Quoting Bill Wallace:<br>
<br>
> A belief, like anything else,<br>
> is a product of our brains.<br>
<br>
"Like anything else?" Do you not believe in facts or simple objective <br>
truths? Do you not believe in the existence of trees that you do not <br>
hear fall? There are beliefs that fit the facts and those that don't. <br>
The that mind is not an abstraction of the material reality is actually<br>
<br>
> There is no difference between what the brain<br>
> is doing and mind, except that a lot of things are being done, like<br>
> digesting food, that do not normally enter the mind.<br>
<br>
Sure there is. Your brain and my brain are doing the same shit. But <br>
your mind and my mind are clearly not the same. What distinguishes <br>
you, Professor, if not your mind?<br>
<br>
> People can influence<br>
> their heart rates and blood pressure, though it takes biofeedback training<br>
> for most people.<br>
<br>
Thank you. Biofeedback and its well-documented existence is another <br>
clear empirical example of downward causation.<br>
<br>
> No, not a dualist in any sense. Brain activity does not<br>
> create mind - it IS mind - conscious and unconscious. bill w<br>
<br>
Then why is anesthesia not permanent? If loss of brain-function is <br>
loss of mind and self, then why do not most patients not die or forget <br>
themselves forever on the operating table? What makes you wake up <br>
believing you are human after you have dreamt you were a hummingbird?<br>
<br>
Stuart LaForge<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
>><br>
>> Quoting Bill Wallace:<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>> Here we go again with definitions. An abstract concept only exists as we<br>
>>> define it.<br>
>><br>
>> Not so. Many abstract concepts spookily exist independently of brains. I<br>
>> think it takes a brain.<br>
>> The orbits of planets were ellipses long before intelligent primates<br>
>> named them such. An abstraction is in some ways a compression<br>
>> algorithm for reality. Like a shorthand symbol for a meaningful<br>
>> recurrent pattern or relationship between elements of set that still<br>
>> tries to maintain the "shape" of the set. Anything you expend the<br>
>> energy to define must has some value to you, your genes, your god or<br>
>> country. If you don't believe me, then believe Tolkien. His Hobbits<br>
>> ultimately proved to be worth billions.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>> Suppose I have an approach-avoidance conflict. I am stuck in the middle<br>
>> and<br>
>>> can't make up my mind. Trying to get rid of an addiction can be thought<br>
>> of<br>
>>> like this. In the brain there may be opposing excitatory and inhibitory<br>
>>> forces that are equal. Now I see something on tv or read in a book that<br>
>>> adds one iota to the approach side, making doing it more attractive, and<br>
>> so<br>
>>> I do the thing, whatever it is. I have trouble calling this willpower.<br>
>> It<br>
>>> may look like this to others.<br>
>><br>
>> Call it whatever you want. Ganas, from Spanish is a fine word for it, also.<br>
>><br>
>>><br>
>>> Now consider all traits as being in a huge set. We pick out certain ones<br>
>>> and call the total willpower (or just about anything). Someone else<br>
>> comes<br>
>>> along and picks out a slightly different set and calls that willpower.<br>
>> The<br>
>>> two argue: one says that's more like persistence than willpower and the<br>
>>> other disagrees. Who is right? Neither. Both. One of them. Depending<br>
>>> on use of the word. Look at all the flap over the years about what to<br>
>> call<br>
>>> intelligence. Is it unitary? Multifaceted? Depends on who is picking<br>
>> out<br>
>>> the parts from the total set.<br>
>><br>
>> OK. Maybe willpower is unnecessarily complicated to empirically test<br>
>> what I am getting at. Let's look at a well-established medical<br>
>> phenomenon replicated by labs the world-wide: the placebo effect. The<br>
>> idea being that the mind must be able to cause brain states because<br>
>> the placebo effect demonstrates that mind can cause body states<br>
>> including the curing of illness. And if the brain generates the mind,<br>
>> then it is the most convenient part of the body for the mind to<br>
>> influence. I certainly do not dispute the placebo effect, but I think I<br>
>> am missing your point.<br>
>><br>
>>> Being forced to eat beets is a different force than what holds the Moon<br>
>> up<br>
>>> there. Pretty sure about that.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Mind over matter is dualism and makes utterly no sense to me. bill w<br>
>><br>
>> Bill, if you believe in the difference between hardware and software,<br>
>> then you are a dualist. If you don't believe that software can affect<br>
>> hardware, then you haven't been paying attention. Supervenience is bad<br>
>> philosophy because it doesn't explain empirical evidence. How can one<br>
>> explain the placebo effect, the ability for sugar pills to have a<br>
>> therapeutic effect based no more than on a belief, without dualism and<br>
>> downward causation and mind over matter? A belief, like anything else,<br>
>> is a product of our brains. There is no difference between what the brain<br>
>> is doing and mind, except that a lot of things are being done, like<br>
>> digesting food, that do not normally enter the mind. People can influence<br>
>> their heart rates and blood pressure, though it takes biofeedback training<br>
>> for most people. No, not a dualist in any sense. Brain activity does not<br>
>> create mind - it IS mind - conscious and unconscious. bill w<br>
>><br>
>> Stuart LaForge<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> On Mon, Apr 18, 2022 at 12:37 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Quoting Bill Wallace:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>>> On Sat, Apr 9, 2022 at 7:37 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <<br>
>>>>> <a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Not every experiment has to be done like a clinical trial.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Take 100,000 people. Also have each of them them to an objective<br>
>>>> observer<br>
>>>>>> in their life. Ask each of the 10000 their goals for the next year.<br>
>>>> In a<br>
>>>>>> year, check with the participants and their observers, to see whether<br>
>>>> they<br>
>>>>>> completed their goals. Split the 'did complete' and 'didn't complete'<br>
>>>>>> groups into 2. Match individuals in each group to an individual in<br>
>> the<br>
>>>>>> other who is matched in terms of income, race, age, sex, as much as<br>
>>>>>> possible. Discard unmatched participants. The difference is<br>
>> willpower<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Yeah, or some other more or less equivalent term. I think they need to<br>
>>>> be<br>
>>>>> matched on goals, the goals rated as to difficulty and so on. and I<br>
>> could<br>
>>>>> quibble a bit about their environments, but I more or less agree.<br>
>> bill w<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> IMO, the most fascinating thing about will-power is that it exists and<br>
>>>> is thus quantifiable. The reason this is surprising is because modern<br>
>>>> functionalist, physicalists, and materialists insist that brain makes<br>
>>>> mind in a one way causal relationship termed supervenience. That is to<br>
>>>> say that a brain state should be able to cause and mind state but a<br>
>>>> mind state should not be able to cause a brain state.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Since, even in cases of addiction, willpower is often defined<br>
>>>> colloquially as "mind over matter", this would violate supervenience<br>
>>>> because "mind over matter" would be labelled as downward causation and<br>
>>>> forbidden.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Near as I can tell, willpower would have to defined as the triumph<br>
>>>> over-riding of one part of the brain against another. Such as one's<br>
>>>> frontal lobe overcoming ones limbic system and allowing one to fight<br>
>>>> off a craving for any particular stimulus.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Stuart LaForge<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 9, 2022 at 1:20 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat<br>
>> <<br>
>>>>>> <a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> EXample: a couple, male and female, go to a party. The guy's<br>
>>>>>>> ex-girlfriend is there. We observe his interactions with people. He<br>
>>>> talks<br>
>>>>>>> to others, including the ex and his date observes body language,<br>
>> facial<br>
>>>>>>> expressions and so on. We see signs in her of anger and just being<br>
>>>> upset.<br>
>>>>>>> She talks to him and they leave the party.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> Well, does that look like jealousy? Sure does. But how do we know<br>
>>>> it's<br>
>>>>>>> not a stomachache? Or leaving to study for a test? Or or or.We<br>
>> don't.<br>
>>>>>>> What we need is more observations of that couple in various<br>
>> situations<br>
>>>> and<br>
>>>>>>> maybe just interview them and ask what is going on.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Jealousy might be another bizarrely "causal" states of mind. The sheer<br>
>>>> number of people that have through history been murdered by somebody<br>
>>>> in a fit of jealous rage should be relatively high.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Stuart LaForge<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> _______________________________________________<br>
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