<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div>Yes, I agree with that. Just like there are a bunch of different things that have a redness color, and a bunch of different things from any of those which have a gereness color.</div><div>The sets will be completely disjoint, and nothing but the redness set will have a redness quality. A greeness property, or any other physical property will be able to represent 'red' knowledge, but only if you have a dictionary to allow such substrate independence. That is how perception and communication across any substrate works - it requires transducing dictionaries to achieve the substrate independence. Redness is just a physical fact, and your redness is your definition of 'red'.</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 6:35 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, 13 May 2022 at 08:30, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><br><div>Hi Stathis,</div><div>I think we are in agreement with that. There may be different things, or variants of things, that all have a redness quality.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>So you agree it isn't substrate specific.<br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>But, there must be something physically different than that, which has the greenness quality, and you can't get redness, from the stuff that has a greenness quality, unless you have a dictionary that says greenness is representing red.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The same thing in the same configuration will give the same qualia, a different thing in a different configuration may give the same or different qualia.<br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 7:17 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, 11 May 2022 at 10:32, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br><div>There are lots of competing theories making predictions about what qualia are.</div><div>It will be an answers to the question: Which of all our descriptions of stuff in the brain is a description of redness.</div><div>My assumption is there is some necessary and sufficient set of observable physical behavior or chemical reactions which are the descriptions of redness.</div><div>So to say anything that is not the qualia, is anything outside of this necessary and sufficient set of physics.</div><div>So, by definition, if anything varies from the necessary and sufficient set, it would no longer be redness.</div><div>I like to think of it as being similar to when you burn certain metals, it emits different colored light.</div><div>Obviously, if you change or remove the metal, the color changes. And nothing but those metals will produce the same chemical reaction that emits that particular color.</div><div>It isn't the light, which many things could produce the same light, it is possible that only the particular chemical reaction that can be computationally bound, such that if it changes, the redness will change in a way that the entire system must be aware of that change from redness.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It's possible that for technical reasons nothing can be found that will affect the rest of the system in the same way as glutamate does. However, saying this is avoiding the question. There is no logical reason why a substitute either for glutamate or one of the thousands of other components in the brain could not be found. As an example that would probably work, substitute some of the atoms in a molecule with different isotopes. This is a quite common technique to track molecules in biomedical research. You can order some online if you want:</div><div><a href="https://www.moravek.com/what-exactly-is-radiolabeling/" target="_blank">https://www.moravek.com/what-exactly-is-radiolabeling/</a></div><div>So radiolabeled glutamate will behave the same as regular glutamate, but it is a different substrate. What do you think would happen to the qualia if radiolabeled glutamate replaced regular glutamate?<br></div></div><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr">Stathis Papaioannou</div></div>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr">Stathis Papaioannou</div></div><div id="gmail-m_-3652782376358621079DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br>
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