<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">I met someone at university who told me that he wasn’t having children because of climate change. That is the moment I realized these people are radicals. This person is also a communist. I think many of the revolutions are just modern day holy crusades. People seem to feel the need to believe in something to worship and something to fight, lest we regress into boredom.<br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Nov 10, 2022, at 12:52 PM, Max More via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" class="">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta charset="UTF-8" class=""><div class="elementToProof" style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Perhaps one reason that church attendance is down is that the Green religion has gained so many followers and they don't have churches (at least in the usual sense). The Green religion has its own original sin (humankind's separation from nature due to intelligence and technology), its own god or goddess (Gaia/the Earth/Nature), its own indulgences (carbon offsets), its sacrifices (give up your inexpensive cars in favor of expensive electric vehicles -- and pretend that the latter are powered by "green energy"), its own prophets (Al Gore, Bill McKibben, Michael Mann, and many others), and it follows authoritarian, faith-based modes of thinking -- believe The Science (TM), combined with apocalyptic pronouncements and predictions that are adjusted every time they fail. </div><div class="elementToProof" style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br class=""></div><div class="elementToProof" style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Especially for young people (first three or four decades), Green/extreme environmentalism/catastrophism has replaced standard religions but meets most of the same "needs".</div><div class="elementToProof" style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br class=""></div><div class="elementToProof" style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">--Max</div><div id="appendonsend" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""></div><hr tabindex="-1" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; display: inline-block; width: 842.796875px;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""></span><div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><b class="">From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org" class="">extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org</a>> on behalf of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" class="">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, November 10, 2022 10:29 AM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>ExI chat list <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" class="">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br class=""><b class="">Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>William Flynn Wallace <<a href="mailto:foozler83@gmail.com" class="">foozler83@gmail.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [ExI] us</font><div class=""> </div></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="x_gmail_default" style="font-family: "comic sans ms", sans-serif; font-size: large;">Church attendance is down, I hear. Look at the doctrines - Man is doomed via the Fall of Man in the Garden of Eden. All of us have to be saved from what we are, which is a bundle of unforgiven sin. And the only way to do that is to join the 'true' church, whatever that might be locally.</div><div class="x_gmail_default" style="font-family: "comic sans ms", sans-serif; font-size: large;"><br class=""></div><div class="x_gmail_default" style="font-family: "comic sans ms", sans-serif; font-size: large;">Those on the edge reject Original Sin, I think, in favor of Mother Nature, panpsychism, and more. Future historians will take our age as a most interesting mess re religion, formal or informal. bill w</div><div class="x_gmail_default" style="font-family: "comic sans ms", sans-serif; font-size: large;"><br class=""></div><div class="x_gmail_default" style="font-family: "comic sans ms", sans-serif; font-size: large;">These are far more positive approaches to gods than all the major religions hold. </div></div><br class=""><div class="x_gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="x_gmail_attr">On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 11:16 AM Gadersd via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" class="">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="x_gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class="">The professor I did research under at university is a Muslim. He once told me that he was raising one of his sons agnostic. I was really surprised at the time as that seemed to go completely against doctrine. I think people leaning on the edge tend to view religion itself as mostly a man-made construct made up of largely arbitrary rules while at the same time recognizing the fundamental existence of God. The trend seems to be that religion is becoming more individualistic and open to interpretation. In a personalized religion divorced from rigid doctrine it shouldn’t matter much what other people believe.<br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Nov 10, 2022, at 10:52 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank" class="">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="x_gmail_default" style="font-family: "comic sans ms", sans-serif; font-size: large;">Those near the border of skepticism and belief have a hard time when it comes to their children. Let them experience religion first hand in a church? Keep them away? Let them know your doubt? And so on. Tough decisions for the agnostic (though not for the hard bitten atheist). bill w</div></div><br class=""><div class="x_gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="x_gmail_attr">On Wed, Nov 9, 2022 at 5:42 PM Tara Maya via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank" class="">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="x_gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class="">I imagine it's a Red Queen's arms race between the persuaders and the skeptics--made more difficult that we each play both roles at different times in our lives.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Tara Maya<br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Nov 8, 2022, at 8:07 AM, BillK via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank" class="">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class=""><div class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 24px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 24px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline;" class="">Heh! :) Western societies live in an environment of hidden</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 24px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 24px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline;" class="">persuaders. Billions spent on advertising persuasion, government</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 24px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 24px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline;" class="">propaganda, religious cults indoctrinating members, social media</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 24px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 24px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline;" class="">influencers, etc. It is so prevalent that we don't even notice it.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 24px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 24px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline;" class="">Like a fish asking, "What is this water that you talk about?".</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 24px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 24px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline;" class="">The Chinese have large camps to indoctrinate Uyghurs.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 24px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 24px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline;" class="">None of this would be done if persuasion didn't work.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 24px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 24px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline;" class="">Unfortunately it works far too well.</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></div>_______________________________________________<br class="">extropy-chat mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank" class="">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a><br class=""><a href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</a><br class=""></blockquote></div>_______________________________________________<br class="">extropy-chat mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank" class="">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a><br class=""><a href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat" target="_blank" class="">http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</a><br class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div>_______________________________________________<br class="">extropy-chat mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank" class="">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a><br class=""><a href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</a><br class=""></blockquote></div></div><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); 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