<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:#000000"><div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><br class="gmail-Apple-interchange-newline">Especially for young people (first three or four decades), Green/extreme environmentalism/catastrophism has replaced standard religions but meets most of the same "needs". <span style="font-size:12pt">Max</span></div><div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="font-size:12pt"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="font-size:12pt">We are often dissing the average person because we think that they are likely authoritarians. And why? We think it's because they want to be told how to do everything in life and how to live and what to believe. Sheep following a leader.</span></div><div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="font-size:12pt"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="font-size:12pt">What percentage of the population is that? I wish I knew. Think how many teens and even younger kids go through a period, perhaps lifelong, of disrespecting authority, sometimes following revelations that their parents and others are hypocrites who don't practice what they preach. </span></div><div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="font-size:12pt"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="font-size:12pt">I must not have gotten the right genes: the idea of bowing my head and kneeling and asking for enlightenment and forgiveness is anathema to me. I very highly respect many people, modern and historical, but kowtowing? Not me, not ever. I wonder how many in this group have a worship need?</span></div><div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="font-size:12pt"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="font-size:12pt">Isn't 'authoritarian libertarian' an oxymoron?</span></div><div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="font-size:12pt"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="font-size:12pt">bill w</span></div><div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="font-size:12pt"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="font-size:12pt"><br></span></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 1:13 PM Gadersd via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;">I met someone at university who told me that he wasn’t having children because of climate change. That is the moment I realized these people are radicals. This person is also a communist. I think many of the revolutions are just modern day holy crusades. People seem to feel the need to believe in something to worship and something to fight, lest we regress into boredom.<br><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Nov 10, 2022, at 12:52 PM, Max More via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">Perhaps one reason that church attendance is down is that the Green religion has gained so many followers and they don't have churches (at least in the usual sense). The Green religion has its own original sin (humankind's separation from nature due to intelligence and technology), its own god or goddess (Gaia/the Earth/Nature), its own indulgences (carbon offsets), its sacrifices (give up your inexpensive cars in favor of expensive electric vehicles -- and pretend that the latter are powered by "green energy"), its own prophets (Al Gore, Bill McKibben, Michael Mann, and many others), and it follows authoritarian, faith-based modes of thinking -- believe The Science (TM), combined with apocalyptic pronouncements and predictions that are adjusted every time they fail. </div><div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><br></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">Especially for young people (first three or four decades), Green/extreme environmentalism/catastrophism has replaced standard religions but meets most of the same "needs".</div><div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><br></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">--Max</div><div id="m_-7204907422767615072appendonsend" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"></div><hr style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;display:inline-block;width:842.797px"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline"></span><div id="m_-7204907422767615072divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b><span> </span>extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat-bounces@lists.extropy.org</a>> on behalf of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br><b>Sent:</b><span> </span>Thursday, November 10, 2022 10:29 AM<br><b>To:</b><span> </span>ExI chat list <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>><br><b>Cc:</b><span> </span>William Flynn Wallace <<a href="mailto:foozler83@gmail.com" target="_blank">foozler83@gmail.com</a>><br><b>Subject:</b><span> </span>Re: [ExI] us</font><div> </div></div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large">Church attendance is down, I hear. Look at the doctrines - Man is doomed via the Fall of Man in the Garden of Eden. All of us have to be saved from what we are, which is a bundle of unforgiven sin. And the only way to do that is to join the 'true' church, whatever that might be locally.</div><div style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large">Those on the edge reject Original Sin, I think, in favor of Mother Nature, panpsychism, and more. Future historians will take our age as a most interesting mess re religion, formal or informal. bill w</div><div style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large">These are far more positive approaches to gods than all the major religions hold. </div></div><br><div><div dir="ltr">On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 11:16 AM Gadersd via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>The professor I did research under at university is a Muslim. He once told me that he was raising one of his sons agnostic. I was really surprised at the time as that seemed to go completely against doctrine. I think people leaning on the edge tend to view religion itself as mostly a man-made construct made up of largely arbitrary rules while at the same time recognizing the fundamental existence of God. The trend seems to be that religion is becoming more individualistic and open to interpretation. In a personalized religion divorced from rigid doctrine it shouldn’t matter much what other people believe.<br><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Nov 10, 2022, at 10:52 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large">Those near the border of skepticism and belief have a hard time when it comes to their children. Let them experience religion first hand in a church? Keep them away? Let them know your doubt? And so on. Tough decisions for the agnostic (though not for the hard bitten atheist). bill w</div></div><br><div><div dir="ltr">On Wed, Nov 9, 2022 at 5:42 PM Tara Maya via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>I imagine it's a Red Queen's arms race between the persuaders and the skeptics--made more difficult that we each play both roles at different times in our lives.<div><br></div><div>Tara Maya<br><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Nov 8, 2022, at 8:07 AM, BillK via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:24px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:24px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">Heh! :) Western societies live in an environment of hidden</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:24px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:24px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">persuaders. Billions spent on advertising persuasion, government</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:24px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:24px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">propaganda, religious cults indoctrinating members, social media</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:24px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:24px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">influencers, etc. It is so prevalent that we don't even notice it.</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:24px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:24px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">Like a fish asking, "What is this water that you talk about?".</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:24px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:24px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">The Chinese have large camps to indoctrinate Uyghurs.</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:24px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:24px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">None of this would be done if persuasion didn't work.</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:24px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:24px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">Unfortunately it works far too well.</span></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>extropy-chat mailing 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