<div dir="ltr"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness</a><div><br></div><div>See also (hilariously) <a href="https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/fsDz6HieZJBu54Yes/zombies-the-movie">https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/fsDz6HieZJBu54Yes/zombies-the-movie</a><br><div><br></div><div>It turns out that it's impossible to distinguish between normal people and p-zombies, /unless/ they're talking about consciousness: P-zombies write off the hard problem of consciousness as meaningless syllables.</div></div><div><br></div><div>I dunno about y'all, but when I introspect on my consciousness, there's things there that are an ontologically different kind of thing than calcium ions bouncing from one side to the other of a lipid membrane.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 12:52 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)">OK, let's everybody jump on me: how about this: consciousness is the private experiences of a person's inner and outer world. It is nothing more than an awareness of incoming stimuli (at least some of them) from the outside world and from the person's unconscious mind and short term memory (temporary storage of experiences). This awareness is greatly turned off in sleep (though powerful stimuli can get through and awaken the person). Simple things like EEG can determine the level of awareness (and they claim they can tell sometimes what a person is dreaming!).</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)">If consciousness is anything more than the above, let me know. Maybe I am naive but I can learn. I don't think there is any mystery to it. Certainly not any ghosts. bill w</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 1:09 PM Terren Suydam <<a href="mailto:terren.suydam@gmail.com" target="_blank">terren.suydam@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 11:08 AM John Clark <<a href="mailto:johnkclark@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnkclark@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 10:44 AM Terren Suydam <<a href="mailto:terren.suydam@gmail.com" target="_blank">terren.suydam@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span><br></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><font size="4"><br></font><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><font size="4"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">>> </span>The obvious answer is that<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </span> our world appears to be lawfully ordered and constrained by the laws of physics<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> because </span>our<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> universe</span> <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><b>IS</b></span> lawfully ordered and constrained by the laws of physics<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">. And Occam's razor says the simplest explanation that explains an observation is the best. </span></font></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><i><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> </span>Yes, that is the obvious answer, but sometimes the obvious answers are wrong.<br></i></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><font size="4">But usually they are not, usually Occam's razor is a very effective strateg<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">y and I see absolutely no reason to deviate from it in this case. </span></font></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>But you said yourself that you need to sweep some inconvenient facts under the rug to make physicalism work. Even if you ultimately choose not to deviate from it, that is clearly a reason to do so.<br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div></div></div></div></blockquote> <br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><i><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">>>> </span>It's just saying that the Hard Problem is a proof that the axioms at the heart of physicalism are wrong.</i></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><font size="4"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">>></span>If I knew exactly what the hard problem was maybe I'd agree I don't know. But at least tell me this, tell me what sort of thing would convince you that the "hard problem" had been solved? If somebody said X produces consciousness then what sort of thing would X have to be, could it be complex and made of many parts or would it have to be simple and be all of one thing and not have parts at all? I'm assuming you would demand that X be pure objective stuff since you're trying to figure out how to jump over the huge subjective/objective gap. Is my assumption correct? </font><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><i><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> </span>I don't think the hard problem can be solved, that's why I'm no longer a physicalist. I think the "Hard Problem" is actually a poor name for what it's describing, because calling something a problem suggests there's a solution. It's more of a category error.<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </span>Idealism makes the category error go away. Nothing "produces" consciousness. Consciousness is primary.</i></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><font size="4">So <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">your brute fact </span><span class="gmail_default">is that</span><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> something as wonderful and complex as c</span>onsciousness <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">just is, and that's that. My brute fact is that </span><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">something as wonderful and complex as c</span>onsciousness<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> is the result of the simplest thing conceivable, something that can have only 2 states, for example on or off. I like my brute fact better and I'm pretty sure </span>William of Ockham<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> would too, and as an added bonus it agrees with experimental results (the effects of anesthesia and poison) which your brute fact does not. </span></font></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Your brute fact is a category error and a base contradiction. It's saying the ghost <i>is </i>the machine, and yet physicalism only allows machines. For physicalists who allow consciousness, they are at complete odds with the rest of their metaphysics. They allow it because they have to (unless they're courageous enough to deny consciousness), but it's a terribly inconvenient fact that consciousness exists, which is why most physicalists would really rather not talk about it.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Terren<br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><font size="4"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> John K Clark</span></font></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></span></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
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