<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Jan 21, 2023 at 10:23 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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On 21/01/2023 13:28, Brent wrote:</div></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div> Yes exactly. </div></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div> The conscious visual knowledge rendered from one eye uses
glutamate, and the knowledge rendered from the other eye is
rendered with something slightly different.</div></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">
<div>On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 3:17
PM William Flynn Wallace <<a href="mailto:foozler83@gmail.com" target="_blank">foozler83@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br></div></div><div class="gmail_quote">
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<div>Also
from Jong: "Suzanne Kane studies vision in peacocks; she
has a slight difference in her color vision in each eye,
so that one gives her a slightly reddish tint."</div>
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<div>Explain
that with glutamate, will you? bill w</div>
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I think conventional, established neuroscience can probably do that.<br>
<br>
Of course, the 'with glutamate' part is a bit of a red herring, as
we know that any other neurotransmitter would do just as well, being
simply a way for one neuron to give its neighbour neurons a nudge.</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>You are describing the way abstract computers work, where everything is just interpretations of interpretations (one nudge leading to the next.) </div><div>Consciousness is different. Conscious knowledge is represented directly on intrinsic qualities like redness, greenness, and in this case part of the subjective experience including something that has a "slightly reddish tint" along with the normal redness and greenness. A system made out of nothing but nudges has no physical qualities like redness and greenness, on which it represents information. Of all our objective descriptions of stuff in the brain, one of those must be a description of subjective redness. It is a yet to be falsified possibility that our objective description of glutamate, reacting in a synapse, is a description of subjective redness. In other words, it behaves the way it does (nudges something else in a particular way), because of its redness quality. If someone experiences redness without glutamate, that hypothesis is then falsified, so you move on to something else in the brain, till you find something that does behave the way it does, because of its redness quality. (i.e. that theory can't be falsified.) So 'glutamate' is just a temporary one of many possible stand-ins for something physical, in the brain, which behaves the way it does because of its redness quality.</div><div> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>(Actually, thinking about it, it's probably not a neurological thing
at all. The most likely explanation is going to be that the cornea
or lens of one eye is acting as a colour filter).<br>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The fact that a colour filter can change your knowledge of the strawberry from redness to greeness proves that the qualities are of something in your brain, not of the light or the strawberry. You could just as easily add the red/green signal inverter between the retina and the optic nerve. In that case the red strawberry, and the red light landing on the retina, would all "seem green." The question is, what is that greenness, if not something in the brain?</div><div><br></div><div>For more information see the recently submitted for possible publication: "<a href="https://www.dropbox.com/s/k9x4uh83yex4ecw/Physicists%20Don%27t%20Understand%20Color.docx?dl=0">Physicists Don't Understand Color</a>"</div><div><br></div><div><a class="gmail_plusreply" id="plusReplyChip-0" href="mailto:johnkclark@gmail.com" tabindex="-1">@John Clark</a> Are you happy? I didn't use my image which you hate. But, since I didn't use the image, I bet nobody will understand what I'm trying to say about representing information with a physical redness quality being different from representing information with an abstract word like 'red' made of ones and zeros, which is what nudging computers use to represent 'red' information.<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div> </div></div></div>