<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail-group gmail-w-full gmail-text-gray-800 gmail-dark:text-gray-100 gmail-border-b gmail-border-black/10 gmail-dark:border-gray-900/50 gmail-dark:bg-gray-800" style="border-width:0px 0px 1px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgba(0,0,0,0.1);box-sizing:border-box;width:1402.11px;font-family:Söhne,ui-sans-serif,system-ui,-apple-system,"Segoe UI",Roboto,Ubuntu,Cantarell,"Noto Sans",sans-serif,"Helvetica Neue",Arial,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol","Noto Color Emoji";font-size:14px"><div class="gmail-text-base gmail-gap-4 gmail-md:gap-6 gmail-md:max-w-2xl gmail-lg:max-w-2xl gmail-xl:max-w-3xl gmail-p-4 gmail-md:py-6 gmail-flex gmail-lg:px-0 gmail-m-auto" style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;margin:auto;display:flex;padding:1.5rem 0px;font-size:1rem;line-height:1.5rem;max-width:48rem"><div class="gmail-relative gmail-flex gmail-w-[calc(100%-50px)] gmail-flex-col gmail-gap-1 gmail-md:gap-3 gmail-lg:w-[calc(100%-115px)]" style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;display:flex"><div class="gmail-flex gmail-flex-grow gmail-flex-col gmail-gap-3" style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;display:flex"><div class="gmail-min-h-[20px] gmail-flex gmail-flex-col gmail-items-start gmail-gap-4 gmail-whitespace-pre-wrap" style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;display:flex;min-height:20px;white-space:pre-wrap">This is an interesting experiment, but I want to go behind it and ask you to help me thinkingabout how 2 entities could still communicate without pointing to any object at all. Imagine 2 beings from other dimension want to communicate and they don't even have shared physics laws. How would you go about it?</div></div><div class="gmail-text-gray-400 gmail-flex gmail-self-end gmail-lg:self-center gmail-justify-center gmail-mt-2 gmail-gap-3 gmail-md:gap-4 gmail-lg:gap-1 gmail-lg:absolute gmail-lg:top-0 gmail-lg:translate-x-full gmail-lg:right-0 gmail-lg:mt-0 gmail-lg:pl-2 gmail-visible" style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0px;display:flex;padding-left:0.5rem"><button class="gmail-p-1 gmail-rounded-md gmail-hover:bg-gray-100 gmail-hover:text-gray-700 gmail-dark:text-gray-400 gmail-dark:hover:bg-gray-700 gmail-dark:hover:text-gray-200 gmail-disabled:dark:hover:text-gray-400 gmail-md:invisible gmail-md:group-hover:visible" style="border-width:0px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(217,217,227);font-family:inherit;font-size:16px;font-weight:inherit;line-height:inherit;margin:0px;padding:0.25rem;background-image:none;border-radius:0.375rem"></button></div><div class="gmail-flex gmail-justify-between" style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;display:flex"></div></div></div></div><div class="gmail-group gmail-w-full gmail-text-gray-800 gmail-dark:text-gray-100 gmail-border-b gmail-border-black/10 gmail-dark:border-gray-900/50 gmail-bg-gray-50 gmail-dark:bg-[#444654]" style="border-width:0px 0px 1px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgba(0,0,0,0.1);box-sizing:border-box;width:1402.11px;font-family:Söhne,ui-sans-serif,system-ui,-apple-system,"Segoe UI",Roboto,Ubuntu,Cantarell,"Noto Sans",sans-serif,"Helvetica Neue",Arial,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol","Noto Color Emoji";font-size:14px"><div class="gmail-text-base gmail-gap-4 gmail-md:gap-6 gmail-md:max-w-2xl gmail-lg:max-w-2xl gmail-xl:max-w-3xl gmail-p-4 gmail-md:py-6 gmail-flex gmail-lg:px-0 gmail-m-auto" style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;margin:auto;display:flex;padding:1.5rem 0px;font-size:1rem;line-height:1.5rem;max-width:48rem"><div class="gmail-w-[30px] gmail-flex gmail-flex-col gmail-relative gmail-items-end" style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;display:flex;width:30px"><div class="gmail-relative gmail-h-[30px] gmail-w-[30px] gmail-p-1 gmail-rounded-sm gmail-text-white gmail-flex gmail-items-center gmail-justify-center" style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;display:flex;height:30px;width:30px;border-radius:0.125rem;padding:0.25rem;background-color:black"></div></div><div class="gmail-relative gmail-flex gmail-w-[calc(100%-50px)] gmail-flex-col gmail-gap-1 gmail-md:gap-3 gmail-lg:w-[calc(100%-115px)]" style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;display:flex"><div class="gmail-flex gmail-flex-grow gmail-flex-col gmail-gap-3" style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;display:flex"><div class="gmail-min-h-[20px] gmail-flex gmail-flex-col gmail-items-start gmail-gap-4 gmail-whitespace-pre-wrap" style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;display:flex;min-height:20px;white-space:pre-wrap"><div class="gmail-markdown gmail-prose gmail-w-full gmail-break-words gmail-dark:prose-invert gmail-light" style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;max-width:none;font-size:1rem;line-height:1.75;width:652.997px"><p style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px 0px 1.25em">Establishing communication between two entities without shared physical referents or even shared physics laws would indeed be a challenging task. However, here are some strategies that could potentially facilitate communication in such a scenario:</p><ol style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;list-style-position:initial;margin:1.25em 0px;padding:0px 0px 0px 1rem;display:flex"><li style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px;padding-left:0.375em"><p style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px">Identify commonalities: Begin by exploring any possible shared experiences, concepts, or processes that might exist between the two entities, even if they are abstract or based on different underlying principles. For instance, both entities might experience time, change, or some form of interaction within their respective dimensions.</p></li><li style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px;padding-left:0.375em"><p style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px">Establish a shared communication system: Without any common language or means of communication, the entities would need to develop a shared communication system from scratch. This could involve creating symbols, patterns, or sequences that both entities can recognize and interpret. This system should be adaptable and able to evolve as the entities learn more about each other.</p></li><li style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px;padding-left:0.375em"><p style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px">Use analogies and abstractions: One approach to bridge the gap between different dimensions and experiences is to use analogies and abstractions. The entities could attempt to describe their experiences or concepts by making comparisons to similar or related ideas within the other entity's understanding. This process would likely require a great deal of creativity, patience, and trial and error.</p></li><li style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px;padding-left:0.375em"><p style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px">Develop a shared understanding through iterative feedback: As the entities communicate, they should provide feedback to each other to refine their understanding and improve the clarity of their communication. This iterative process would help them gradually develop a shared understanding and potentially uncover new insights about their respective dimensions.</p></li><li style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px;padding-left:0.375em"><p style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px">Create a shared "mental model": As the entities continue to communicate, they could work towards developing a shared "mental model" that incorporates both of their experiences and understandings. This model would serve as a common reference point for communication, allowing the entities to relate their experiences and concepts to each other more effectively.</p></li></ol><p style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;margin:1.25em 0px 0px">It is essential to recognize that establishing communication between entities with no shared physical referents and different physics laws would be a complex and time-consuming process. Success would likely depend on the entities' creativity, adaptability, and willingness to learn from each other.</p></div></div></div><div class="gmail-flex gmail-justify-between" style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;display:flex"><div class="gmail-text-gray-400 gmail-flex gmail-self-end gmail-lg:self-center gmail-justify-center gmail-mt-2 gmail-gap-3 gmail-md:gap-4 gmail-lg:gap-1 gmail-lg:absolute gmail-lg:top-0 gmail-lg:translate-x-full gmail-lg:right-0 gmail-lg:mt-0 gmail-lg:pl-2 gmail-visible" style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0px;display:flex;padding-left:0.5rem"><button class="gmail-p-1 gmail-rounded-md gmail-hover:bg-gray-100 gmail-hover:text-gray-700 gmail-dark:text-gray-400 gmail-dark:hover:bg-gray-700 gmail-dark:hover:text-gray-200 gmail-disabled:dark:hover:text-gray-400" style="border-width:0px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(217,217,227);font-family:inherit;font-size:16px;font-weight:inherit;line-height:inherit;margin:0px;padding:0.25rem;background-image:none;border-radius:0.375rem"></button><button class="gmail-p-1 gmail-rounded-md gmail-hover:bg-gray-100 gmail-hover:text-gray-700 gmail-dark:text-gray-400 gmail-dark:hover:bg-gray-700 gmail-dark:hover:text-gray-200 gmail-disabled:dark:hover:text-gray-400" style="border-width:0px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(217,217,227);font-family:inherit;font-size:16px;font-weight:inherit;line-height:inherit;margin:0px;padding:0.25rem;background-image:none;border-radius:0.375rem"></button></div></div></div></div></div><div class="gmail-group gmail-w-full gmail-text-gray-800 gmail-dark:text-gray-100 gmail-border-b gmail-border-black/10 gmail-dark:border-gray-900/50 gmail-dark:bg-gray-800" style="border-width:0px 0px 1px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgba(0,0,0,0.1);box-sizing:border-box;width:1402.11px;font-family:Söhne,ui-sans-serif,system-ui,-apple-system,"Segoe UI",Roboto,Ubuntu,Cantarell,"Noto Sans",sans-serif,"Helvetica Neue",Arial,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol","Noto Color Emoji";font-size:14px"><div class="gmail-text-base gmail-gap-4 gmail-md:gap-6 gmail-md:max-w-2xl gmail-lg:max-w-2xl gmail-xl:max-w-3xl gmail-p-4 gmail-md:py-6 gmail-flex gmail-lg:px-0 gmail-m-auto" style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;margin:auto;display:flex;padding:1.5rem 0px;font-size:1rem;line-height:1.5rem;max-width:48rem"><div class="gmail-w-[30px] gmail-flex gmail-flex-col gmail-relative gmail-items-end" style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;display:flex;width:30px"><div class="gmail-relative gmail-flex" style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;display:flex"><span style="border:0px;box-sizing:border-box;display:inline-block;overflow:hidden;width:initial;height:initial;background:none;opacity:1;margin:0px;padding:0px;max-width:100%"><span style="border:0px;box-sizing:border-box;display:block;width:initial;height:initial;background:none;opacity:1;margin:0px;padding:0px;max-width:100%"><img alt="" aria-hidden="true" style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; display: block; vertical-align: middle; height: initial; max-width: 100%; width: initial; background: none; opacity: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"></span><img alt="Giovanni Santostasi" src="https://chat.openai.com/_next/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Flh3.googleusercontent.com%2Fa%2FAGNmyxb_fMn05lxQvUqKvLioXvZtJTW9RIhl3ANKU0ilOg%3Ds96-c&w=64&q=75" class="gmail-rounded-sm" style="border: none; box-sizing: border-box; display: block; vertical-align: middle; height: 0px; max-width: 100%; border-radius: 0.125rem; inset: 0px; padding: 0px; margin: auto; width: 0px; min-width: 100%; min-height: 100%; max-height: 100%;"></span></div></div><div class="gmail-relative gmail-flex gmail-w-[calc(100%-50px)] gmail-flex-col gmail-gap-1 gmail-md:gap-3 gmail-lg:w-[calc(100%-115px)]" style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;display:flex"><div class="gmail-flex gmail-flex-grow gmail-flex-col gmail-gap-3" style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;display:flex"><div class="gmail-min-h-[20px] gmail-flex gmail-flex-col gmail-items-start gmail-gap-4 gmail-whitespace-pre-wrap" style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;display:flex;min-height:20px;white-space:pre-wrap">Ok give me a concrete example. Let's create the above scenario and show me a simple exchange between the two entities let's<span style="font-size:1rem">call them A and B. How <span style="font-size:1rem">A would</span><span style="font-size:1rem"> start and B respond?</span></span></div></div><div class="gmail-text-gray-400 gmail-flex gmail-self-end gmail-lg:self-center gmail-justify-center gmail-mt-2 gmail-gap-3 gmail-md:gap-4 gmail-lg:gap-1 gmail-lg:absolute gmail-lg:top-0 gmail-lg:translate-x-full gmail-lg:right-0 gmail-lg:mt-0 gmail-lg:pl-2 gmail-visible" style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0px;display:flex;padding-left:0.5rem"><button class="gmail-p-1 gmail-rounded-md gmail-hover:bg-gray-100 gmail-hover:text-gray-700 gmail-dark:text-gray-400 gmail-dark:hover:bg-gray-700 gmail-dark:hover:text-gray-200 gmail-disabled:dark:hover:text-gray-400 gmail-md:invisible gmail-md:group-hover:visible" style="border-width:0px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(217,217,227);font-family:inherit;font-size:16px;font-weight:inherit;line-height:inherit;margin:0px;padding:0.25rem;background-image:none;border-radius:0.375rem"></button></div><div class="gmail-flex gmail-justify-between" style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;display:flex"></div></div></div></div><div class="gmail-group gmail-w-full gmail-text-gray-800 gmail-dark:text-gray-100 gmail-border-b gmail-border-black/10 gmail-dark:border-gray-900/50 gmail-bg-gray-50 gmail-dark:bg-[#444654]" style="border-width:0px 0px 1px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgba(0,0,0,0.1);box-sizing:border-box;width:1402.11px;font-family:Söhne,ui-sans-serif,system-ui,-apple-system,"Segoe UI",Roboto,Ubuntu,Cantarell,"Noto Sans",sans-serif,"Helvetica Neue",Arial,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol","Noto Color Emoji";font-size:14px"><div class="gmail-text-base gmail-gap-4 gmail-md:gap-6 gmail-md:max-w-2xl gmail-lg:max-w-2xl gmail-xl:max-w-3xl gmail-p-4 gmail-md:py-6 gmail-flex gmail-lg:px-0 gmail-m-auto" style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;margin:auto;display:flex;padding:1.5rem 0px;font-size:1rem;line-height:1.5rem;max-width:48rem"><div class="gmail-w-[30px] gmail-flex gmail-flex-col gmail-relative gmail-items-end" style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;display:flex;width:30px"><div class="gmail-relative gmail-h-[30px] gmail-w-[30px] gmail-p-1 gmail-rounded-sm gmail-text-white gmail-flex gmail-items-center gmail-justify-center" style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;display:flex;height:30px;width:30px;border-radius:0.125rem;padding:0.25rem;background-color:black"></div></div><div class="gmail-relative gmail-flex gmail-w-[calc(100%-50px)] gmail-flex-col gmail-gap-1 gmail-md:gap-3 gmail-lg:w-[calc(100%-115px)]" style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;display:flex"><div class="gmail-flex gmail-flex-grow gmail-flex-col gmail-gap-3" style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;display:flex"><div class="gmail-min-h-[20px] gmail-flex gmail-flex-col gmail-items-start gmail-gap-4 gmail-whitespace-pre-wrap" style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;display:flex;min-height:20px;white-space:pre-wrap"><div class="gmail-markdown gmail-prose gmail-w-full gmail-break-words gmail-dark:prose-invert gmail-light" style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;max-width:none;font-size:1rem;line-height:1.75;width:652.997px"><p style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px 0px 1.25em">Let's imagine that entities A and B are from different dimensions with no shared physical referents or common physics laws. They have discovered a way to send simple binary signals to each other. We will assume that both A and B are intelligent and capable of learning from their interactions.</p><p style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;margin:1.25em 0px">A simple exchange between A and B could begin as follows:</p><ol style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;list-style-position:initial;margin:1.25em 0px;padding:0px 0px 0px 1rem;display:flex"><li style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px;padding-left:0.375em"><p style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px">A sends a basic repeating pattern to B, like "1010101010." This pattern is intended to convey that A is attempting to communicate and to establish some common ground.</p></li><li style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px;padding-left:0.375em"><p style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px">B recognizes the repeating pattern and responds with a similar pattern, such as "1100110011," to acknowledge the communication attempt and show that it is also capable of sending and receiving signals.</p></li><li style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px;padding-left:0.375em"><p style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px">A and B begin to exchange more complex patterns to explore each other's understanding and capabilities. For example, A sends "100100100100," and B responds with "111000111000," indicating that it understands the concept of repetition and can create its own patterns based on that concept.</p></li><li style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px;padding-left:0.375em"><p style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px">A now sends a sequence of increasing lengths, like "10," "1000," and "100000." This sequence could represent an attempt to convey the concept of progression or growth.</p></li><li style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px;padding-left:0.375em"><p style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px">B responds with its own sequence of increasing lengths, such as "110," "111000," and "111111000000," to demonstrate that it also understands the concept of progression.</p></li></ol><p style="border:0px solid rgb(217,217,227);box-sizing:border-box;margin:1.25em 0px">At this stage, A and B have established a basic understanding of each other's ability to recognize patterns, repetition, and progression. They have also demonstrated a willingness to engage in communication and learn from each other. As their interactions continue, they would likely develop more complex patterns and sequences, gradually building a shared understanding and communication system.</p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 24, 2023 at 1:12 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
Quoting Gordon Swobe <<a href="mailto:gordon.swobe@gmail.com" target="_blank">gordon.swobe@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
<br>
> Bender's point is not that ChatGBT is incapable of generating sensible<br>
> sentences about sticks and bears. It is that these LLMs don't know the<br>
> meanings of any words whatsoever. Confronted with a word it has never seen,<br>
> it must do a statistical analysis to try to find probable next words, never<br>
> knowing what any of them mean.<br>
<br>
<br>
You and Bender seem to making a big deal about the referential meaning  <br>
of words as if they were some sacred goal-keepers of consciousness.  <br>
But really the meaning of words are quite arbitrary and determined by  <br>
the people who use them. Thus the referential meanings of words evolve  <br>
and change over time and come to refer to different things. Take the  <br>
word "terrific" for example. At one time, its referent was something  <br>
terrible cognate to horrific referring to something horrible. These  <br>
days however, its referent is something great or wonderful.<br>
<br>
Or how the meaning of liberal evolved in the U.S. from someone who  <br>
acts like a free person in a free market to someone who wants big  <br>
government, high taxes, and welfare programs. Or take for example when  <br>
a kid on the street tells you, "Your drip is fresh." The meanings of  <br>
words shift, change, and evolve over time and sometimes even define  <br>
social groups. Consciousness is the ability to communicate despite the  <br>
shifting arbitrary meaning of words, not because of the meaning of  <br>
words having some true absolute referential meaning.<br>
<br>
Stuart LaForge<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
extropy-chat mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</a><br>
</blockquote></div>