<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="">Close, but No, this is still circular. "perception" is an abstracting process that requires senses, like eyes or ears.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>The process is the experience.<br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Mar 25, 2023, at 1:32 PM, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" class="">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 9:00 AM Gadersd via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" class="">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="">Can anyone give a better (non circular) definition of a quality?</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>A quality is a particular configuration of particle interactions. We do not know which configuration of particle interactions corresponds to your perception of red because that must be experimentally determined.</div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Close, but No, this is still circular. "perception" is an abstracting process that requires senses, like eyes or ears. It is a long chain of causal physical properties, none of which need to be 'redness' but all can be interpreted as representing 'redness' with a dictionary. Perceptions are just interpretations of interpretations, none of which define what redness means.</div><div class=""><span id="cid:ii_lfo8ssi90"><3_functionally_equal_machines_tiny.png></span><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">All 3 of these systems can perceive 'red'. But only the first to know what redness is like (the second one's redness is like your greenness.)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">For each point of conscious knowledge on the surface of that strawberry, the first one has something in its brain that has a redness quality. The second one has the same, the difference is, each point has something that has your greenness quality. The 3rd one has a bunch of pixel representations, each of which is represented by something abstract, like the word 'red'.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">You don't 'perceive' redness, you directly apprehend it as a quality of your computationally bound conscious knowledge. A quality is a physical property of which conscious experience is composed. Redness is the final result of perception.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""> </div></div></div>
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