<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 7:42 AM Dave S via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Saturday, March 25th, 2023 at 9:18 AM, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br>
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> Instead of using the word 'qualia' which has so many religious connotations like "spiritual qualiat"?<br>
> Can we just instead focus on what is a physical "quality"?<br>
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Is that the same as a physical property? If not, what's the difference?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, qualities are one type of physical property.</div><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">> The only reason qualities are "incommunicable" has to do with the difference between a code for redness, and redness, itself.<br>
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I think their incommunicability is fundamental. You can't describe a physical property that someone has never experienced in terms of properties they have experienced. <br>
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> A "code" for redness, is something that is not redness, representing redness. Physical greenness, physical +5 volts, a physical pit on a paper, or an abstract world like 'red' can code for redness.<br>
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What does "physical green can code for redness" mean?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>You are using quality blind terminology here.  Do you mind if we change our definitions to be adequate to talk about this stuff, as the 45 supporters of <a href="https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Theories-of-Consciousness/6-Representational-Qualia">RQT</a> do?</div><div><br></div><div><span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.85);font-family:Asap,-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,"Helvetica Neue",Arial,"Noto Sans",sans-serif,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol","Noto Color Emoji";font-size:14px">Perception of things is done at a distance via chains of causal intrinsic properties. There are at least the following two sets of intrinsic properties which must be considered if one is not </span><span style="box-sizing:border-box;font-weight:600;color:rgba(0,0,0,0.85);font-family:Asap,-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,"Helvetica Neue",Arial,"Noto Sans",sans-serif,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol","Noto Color Emoji";font-size:14px">qualia blind</span><span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.85);font-family:Asap,-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,"Helvetica Neue",Arial,"Noto Sans",sans-serif,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol","Noto Color Emoji";font-size:14px">:</span><br style="box-sizing:border-box;color:rgba(0,0,0,0.85);font-family:Asap,-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,"Helvetica Neue",Arial,"Noto Sans",sans-serif,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol","Noto Color Emoji";font-size:14px"><br style="box-sizing:border-box;color:rgba(0,0,0,0.85);font-family:Asap,-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,"Helvetica Neue",Arial,"Noto Sans",sans-serif,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol","Noto Color Emoji";font-size:14px"><ol style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px 0px 1em;padding:0px 0px 0px 40px;color:rgba(0,0,0,0.85);font-family:Asap,-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,"Helvetica Neue",Arial,"Noto Sans",sans-serif,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol","Noto Color Emoji";font-size:14px"><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px 0px 0px 20px;padding:0px 0px 0px 4px"><span style="box-sizing:border-box;font-weight:600">“red”</span> The intrinsic physical property of objects that are the target of our observation, the initial cause of the perception process (i.e. when the strawberry reflects 650 nm (red) light). A label for Anything that reflects or emits ‘red’ light.</li><li style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px 0px 0px 20px;padding:0px 0px 0px 4px"><span style="box-sizing:border-box;font-weight:600">“redNESS”</span> The different intrinsic physical property of our knowledge of red things, the final result of our perception of red.</li></ol></div><div><br></div><div>In other words, from the context, when you used the term 'green', you really meant greenness, right?  If you use one word 'green' to represent both of these physical properties, you can't know which physical property you are talking about.</div><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">> But, since they are not redness, you need a dictionary to get from the thing that is not redness, back to the redness, itself.<br>
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The brain maps sensory inputs into their corresponding properties.<br>
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-Dave<br>
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