<div dir="ltr">Also this article. It uses a bunch of technical terms that are in the field of linguistics and I understand them less than the mathematical and geometrical terms that Wolfram uses but supposedly there are theories of linguistics that say referents are not necessary for meaning.<br> <br><a href="https://ndpr.nd.edu/reviews/reference-without-referents/">https://ndpr.nd.edu/reviews/reference-without-referents/</a><br><br>There is a language without nouns or verbs:<br><br><a href="https://academic.oup.com/book/26032/chapter-abstract/193927159?redirectedFrom=fulltext">https://academic.oup.com/book/26032/chapter-abstract/193927159?redirectedFrom=fulltext</a><br><br>Reality without Reference:<br><a href="https://www.jstor.org/stable/42969748">https://www.jstor.org/stable/42969748</a><br><br>Here from a philosophical point of view:<br><div class="gmail-jnl-0 et9zha718" style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;font-variant-numeric:inherit;font-variant-east-asian:inherit;font-variant-alternates:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;line-height:inherit;font-family:"Source Sans Pro","helvetica neue",helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-kerning:inherit;font-feature-settings:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;color:rgb(76,76,76)"><div class="gmail-jnl-zjik7 et9zha717" style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;line-height:inherit;font-family:inherit;font-kerning:inherit;font-feature-settings:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;display:flex"><div class="gmail-jnl-1ff36h2 et9zha715" style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;line-height:inherit;font-family:inherit;font-kerning:inherit;font-feature-settings:inherit;vertical-align:baseline"><ul class="gmail-jnl-5kov97 et9zha714" style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;line-height:inherit;font-family:inherit;font-kerning:inherit;font-feature-settings:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;list-style:none;display:flex"><li class="gmail-jnl-1t819t2 et9zha713" style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px 0px 0px 0.5em;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;line-height:1.3;font-family:inherit;font-kerning:inherit;font-feature-settings:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;list-style:none"><a href="mailto:richard4@fas.harvard.edu" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" title="Email Mark Richard" class="gmail-jnl-vodygu et9zha711" style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px 0px 0px 0.3em;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;line-height:inherit;font-family:inherit;font-kerning:inherit;font-feature-settings:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;display:inline;text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(90,125,159)"><div class="gmail-visually-hidden gmail-jnl-0 e19yh9mz0" style="box-sizing:border-box;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;line-height:inherit;font-family:inherit;font-kerning:inherit;font-feature-settings:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;height:1px;overflow:hidden;width:1px"><br>Email Mark Richard</div></a></li></ul></div><button title="Toggle author information panel" aria-controls="author-bios" aria-expanded="false" class="gmail-jnl-1lhixwo et9zha79" style="padding:0.1rem 0.6rem;border-width:0.1rem;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(221,221,221);background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;margin:0px;vertical-align:baseline;color:rgb(76,76,76);font-family:"Source Sans Pro","helvetica neue",helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;display:flex;width:2em;height:2em;text-align:left;border-radius:0.3rem"><div class="gmail-visually-hidden gmail-jnl-0 e19yh9mz0" style="box-sizing:border-box;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;line-height:inherit;font-family:inherit;font-kerning:inherit;font-feature-settings:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;height:1px;overflow:hidden;width:1px"><font size="2">Toggle author information panel</font><span style="font-size:small;font-style:inherit;font-variant-ligatures:inherit;font-variant-caps:inherit;font-family:inherit;font-weight:inherit;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Abstract</span></div><div class="gmail-visually-hidden gmail-jnl-0 e19yh9mz0" style="box-sizing:border-box;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;line-height:inherit;font-family:inherit;font-kerning:inherit;font-feature-settings:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;height:1px;overflow:hidden;width:1px"><span style="font-family:Merriweather,Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;font-style:inherit;font-variant-ligatures:inherit;font-variant-caps:inherit;font-weight:inherit;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);font-size:small">Most linguists and philosophers will tell you that whatever meaning is, it determines the reference of names, the satisfaction conditions of nouns and verbs, the truth conditions of sentences; in linguist speak, meaning determines semantic value. So a change in semantic value implies a change in meaning. So the semantic value a meaning determines is essential to that meaning: holding contributions from context constant, if two words have different semantic values they cannot mean the same thing. If this is correct, then in a fairly straightforward sense reference is essential to meaning. In this paper I argue that reference is not essential to meaning by giving an example in which groups in different circumstances use a phrase with the same meaning but a different reference.</span></div></button></div></div><div class="gmail-jnl-1gg4orr e15eboeo14" style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px 0px 1em;padding:0px;border:0px;font-variant-numeric:inherit;font-variant-east-asian:inherit;font-variant-alternates:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;line-height:inherit;font-family:"Source Sans Pro","helvetica neue",helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-kerning:inherit;font-feature-settings:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;color:rgb(76,76,76)"><h1 class="e15eboeo10 gmail-jnl-ewi058 e1kn9lbh0" style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-weight:300;font-stretch:inherit;line-height:1.5;font-kerning:inherit;font-feature-settings:inherit;vertical-align:baseline"><span class="gmail-jnl-i002gq e5crbv51" style="font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;line-height:inherit;font-family:inherit;font-kerning:inherit;font-feature-settings:inherit;box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;vertical-align:baseline"><font size="1">Is Reference Essential to Meaning?</font></span></h1></div><div class="gmail-jnl-0 et9zha718" style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;font-variant-numeric:inherit;font-variant-east-asian:inherit;font-variant-alternates:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;line-height:inherit;font-family:"Source Sans Pro","helvetica neue",helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-kerning:inherit;font-feature-settings:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;color:rgb(76,76,76)"><div class="gmail-jnl-zjik7 et9zha717" style="font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;line-height:inherit;font-family:inherit;font-kerning:inherit;font-feature-settings:inherit;box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;vertical-align:baseline;display:flex"><h2 class="et9zha716 gmail-jnl-1ty7wr3 e1kn9lbh0" style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;line-height:1.1em;font-kerning:inherit;font-feature-settings:inherit;vertical-align:baseline"><font size="1">Authors:</font></h2><div class="gmail-jnl-1ff36h2 et9zha715" style="font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;line-height:inherit;font-family:inherit;font-kerning:inherit;font-feature-settings:inherit;box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;vertical-align:baseline"><ul class="gmail-jnl-5kov97 et9zha714" style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;line-height:inherit;font-family:inherit;font-kerning:inherit;font-feature-settings:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;list-style:none;display:flex"><li class="gmail-jnl-1t819t2 et9zha713" style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px 0px 0px 0.5em;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;line-height:1.3;font-family:inherit;font-kerning:inherit;font-feature-settings:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;list-style:none"><font size="1">Mark Richard<a href="mailto:richard4@fas.harvard.edu" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" title="Email Mark Richard" class="gmail-jnl-vodygu et9zha711" style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px 0px 0px 0.3em;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;line-height:inherit;font-family:inherit;font-kerning:inherit;font-feature-settings:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;display:inline;text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(90,125,159)"><div class="gmail-visually-hidden gmail-jnl-0 e19yh9mz0" style="box-sizing:border-box;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;line-height:inherit;font-family:inherit;font-kerning:inherit;font-feature-settings:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;height:1px;overflow:hidden;width:1px">Email Mark Richard</div></a></font></li></ul></div><button title="Toggle author information panel" aria-controls="author-bios" aria-expanded="false" class="gmail-jnl-1lhixwo et9zha79" style="padding:0.1rem 0.6rem;border-width:0.1rem;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(221,221,221);background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;margin:0px;vertical-align:baseline;color:rgb(76,76,76);font-family:"Source Sans Pro","helvetica neue",helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;display:flex;width:2em;height:2em;text-align:left;border-radius:0.3rem"><div class="gmail-visually-hidden gmail-jnl-0 e19yh9mz0" style="box-sizing:border-box;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;line-height:inherit;font-family:inherit;font-kerning:inherit;font-feature-settings:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;height:1px;overflow:hidden;width:1px"><font size="1">Toggle author information panel</font></div></button></div></div><div class="gmail-jnl-1gg4orr e15eboeo14" style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px 0px 1em;padding:0px;border:0px;font-variant-numeric:inherit;font-variant-east-asian:inherit;font-variant-alternates:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;line-height:inherit;font-family:"Source Sans Pro","helvetica neue",helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-kerning:inherit;font-feature-settings:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;color:rgb(76,76,76)"><div class="gmail-jnl-18hhw1j e15eboeo9" style="font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;line-height:inherit;font-family:inherit;font-kerning:inherit;font-feature-settings:inherit;box-sizing:border-box;margin:1.5em 0px;padding:0px;border:0px;vertical-align:baseline"><div class="gmail-jnl-1nvhokv ewelg5v0" style="font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;line-height:inherit;font-family:inherit;font-kerning:inherit;font-feature-settings:inherit;box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;vertical-align:baseline"><h2 id="gmail-abstract" class="e15eboeo8 gmail-jnl-1puxxm3 e1kn9lbh0" style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px 0px 10px;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;line-height:1.1em;font-kerning:inherit;font-feature-settings:inherit;vertical-align:baseline"><font size="1">Abstract</font></h2><span class="gmail-jnl-1hit4cb e5crbv51" style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;line-height:inherit;font-family:Merriweather,Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;font-kerning:inherit;font-feature-settings:inherit;vertical-align:baseline"><font size="1">Most linguists and philosophers will tell you that whatever meaning is, it determines the reference of names, the satisfaction conditions of nouns and verbs, the truth conditions of sentences; in linguist speak, meaning determines semantic value. So a change in semantic value implies a change in meaning. So the semantic value a meaning determines is essential to that meaning: holding contributions from context constant, if two words have different semantic values they cannot mean the same thing. If this is correct, then in a fairly straightforward sense reference is essential to meaning. In this paper I argue that reference is not essential to meaning by giving an example in which groups in different circumstances use a phrase with the same meaning but a different reference.</font></span></div></div></div><div>I mean all what it takes is to Google "Language without referents" and you get hundreds of hits. <br>Giovanni </div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Apr 5, 2023 at 9:31 PM Giovanni Santostasi <<a href="mailto:gsantostasi@gmail.com">gsantostasi@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">I wanted to study this project  and now after this discussion, I'm finally doing it:<br><br><a href="https://www.wolframphysics.org/" target="_blank">https://www.wolframphysics.org/</a><br><br>I read the first few pages of the book and I finally found what I mentioned in my previous messages: a bootstrapping approach to building a language. Not only Wolfram is trying to build a language from very simple rules (often adding plenty of self-referential rules) but an entire freaking universe. It is able to create space and time. He is able to derive the invariance of relativity. <br><br>So the issue if you can build a language from very simple rules and a few initial abstract objects like integers (and if you have an integer you have all of them) it is not an issue any longer given it seems you can build an entire universe from this protocol. <br><br>Gordon, you should explore this website and maybe get the book so you can have a feeling of how this is done. It is all about relations and interactions between a few initial objects and rules on how to make updates on the relationships. This is exactly what the NLM do with their NNs and in fact what our brains do too. <br><br>Every single experience, memory, idea, or word is a sort of graph or connected pattern in our brain. All that the brain cares about is the sequence of activation: neuron 2, followed by neuron 1, followed by neuron 5. That is a chair or whatever. Or at least some aspects of the chair, other connections, short and long across the brain create other associations like a chair being made of wood or being something you sit on. <br><br>Meaning is built in relating this activation pattern to another activation pattern, for example knowing that a chair is smaller than a house and it can be inside a house or that a person (another activation pattern) can sit on the chair or the chair is made of wood (another activation pattern). <br><br>To build meaning you don't need to know what wood is but simply that a chair is made of wood and wood is the material that threes are made of and threes are plants that are one of the forms of living beings and so and so on. <br><br>At no point, you need to refer to any real object in the real world, all that you care about is the relations between these objects that can be identified by specific and unique activations patterns.  You can do this with particles and forces of nature and you can do this with a natural language like English. This is exactly what the NLMs have done. It is just a bunch of weights in a NN and activations patterns in these NNs, exactly like in our brains or in the universe. <br><br>I don't understand how an intelligent person doesn't get this. I'm serious. <br><br>Giovanni <br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Apr 5, 2023 at 8:49 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Apr 5, 2023, 11:26 PM Gordon Swobe <<a href="mailto:gordon.swobe@gmail.com" target="_blank">gordon.swobe@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Frankly I am dumbfounded and flabbergasted that any intelligent person would question my statement  "Words mean things. In the absence of those things that they mean, they have no meanings."<br></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">"Words mean things" -- no disagreement here</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">"In the absence of the things they mean, they have no meaning" -- This I disagree with. If two English speakers survived while the rest of the universe disappeared completely, the two speakers could still carry on a meaningful conversation. Their words would still mean things to them. As long as there's a brain with an appropriate wiring to process words and comprehend the network of relations each word has with other words, there will be meaning. Meaning exists within the mind of the speaker, the presence or absence of an external universe is irrelevant from the point of view of the mind (which for all it knows could be dreaming, deluded, or in a vat or sim).</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Jason </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br>How do you all think you communicate here on ExI or IRL? You use words that mean things to you and which you expect will mean very similar things to others. The word-symbols that you write or utter are merely the vehicles for the meanings. Words without meanings are no more than, well, meaningless nonsense.<br><br>-gts<br><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
</blockquote></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
extropy-chat mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>