<div dir="auto"><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 12:05 AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div>You guys are just pulling my leg right?</div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">No.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"> You really understand these simple (what is the code, and what is the referent) ideas</div><div dir="ltr"></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I couldn't tell you how they are encoded, but I can tell you that the only way we know of so far, for disparate brain regions to communicate with one another is by way of nerve signals. Therefore I hypothesize that information, including both low level discriminations like color, as well as high level discriminations like 'dog' or 'cat' are transmitted from one part of the brain to the other in the on and off signalling of nerves. How about you, do you think there is a certain neurotransmitter specific for each word in our brain?</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"> and are just giving me a hard time?</div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">No, at least not intentionally.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><br><div>Either way, you failed to answer the all important question: How do you decode what is encoded?</div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">With a decoding process. Think: how does a modem or digital TV signal decoder work? There are means why which any information, pictured, sound, video, can be serialized to a string of bits and then on the other receiving end, turned back into some meaningful representation. This is the essence of all data communication and data storage systems.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I propose the brain uses nerves both to transmit data, as well as neural networks to process, encode or decode data. To my knowledge this is the conventional understanding within neuroscience.<br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div>What is the referent? </div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">The signals may reference or represent relationships, encodings or information and memories in other parts of the brain. When your brain builds it's visual representation of the world around you approximately as much data is pulled from memory as is brought it from the optic nerves. Data and references from past experiences are brought in to construct an understanding of what is being seen based on clues from the patterns taken in by the senses.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div> You guys are talking about the code, that isn't like anything, so it needs a dictionary to know what it means, </div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Instead of dictionaries think of pattern recognizers. Those are the building blocks of most of the neocortex. The brain has tens of millions of them (or maybe hundreds of millions?), That is what each neocortical column is and does. It take some signal and process it to recognize what it is and what it represents.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div>I am talking about the referent that is what you get when you decode the word 'red'. Where is the grounding in any of what you are talking about? </div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Ultimately in the patterns and relationships that word has to all the other parts of your brain they get activated when as the word 'red' is processed by the language center of your brain and communicated out and shared with other parts of the brain.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div> Where is the meaning? </div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Same answer as my above paragraph.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div> Where is the quality, which the code word red is a label for?</div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">If you are talking about color now rather than the word red, then the same answer as above but substitute 'word' with 'color' and substitute 'language center' with 'visual center' in the above paragraph.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">(No I am not trying to pull your leg, this is the kind of answer that nearly any neuroscientist woukd give you for questions like these.)</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Jason </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><br></div></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 10, 2023 at 9:13 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 10, 2023, 8:51 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Hi Jason,</div><div>Great, qualities are "encoded in the patterns of neural activity" could be a theory that is not yet experimentally falsified.</div><div>I know there are many others that have made similar claims, I just haven't been able to get anyone to canonize that theory,</div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">What theory is it? I could see materialists, mind brain identity theorists, neural correlationists, and functionalists all potentially agreeing with that statement.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div> so people like you could just join that camp. I suspect it might be kind of like I can't get any of the many people that bleat and tweet things like "in defense of naive realism" to canonizer the theory that predicts redness is a property of the strawberry.</div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Does anyone believe that? People have, for at least 2300 years, recognized that color exists in us, not in the world. Democritus, Galileo, Newtown, Shrodinger, have all said that.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div>Can I ask you another question? You say qualities are "encoded." To me, a "code" is something that is not what it represents, like the word "red" merely represents its grounding referent. Or a physical hole in a paper may be a physical property that isn't a redness property and only represents another property (requiring a transducing dictionary to tell you the meaning of the code).</div><div><br></div><div>How would you decode, what is "encoding" those qualities? Please don't tell me you'd use light. ;)</div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Other parts of the brain decode the meaning of the signals they receive.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>They decode it to WHAT? Decoding from one code, to another code, none of which is like anything nor are they grounded is not yet grounding anything. It is still just a code with no grounded referent so you can't truly decode them in any meaningful way.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div> </div></div></div>
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