<div dir="ltr"><br><div>You guys are talking about lots of interesting complex stuff. Recursion, turtles all the way down, sophisticated algorithms, isomorphism, complex neural networks, abstractions, and on and on. At least nobody here is throwing in quantum uncertainty... yet. ;)</div><div><br></div><div>But does any of that have anything to do with a single simple stand alone elemental quality of conscious experience like redness? How does any of what you guys are talking about provide any insights on what a redness quality is like, and how to communicate the nature of redness? If it is "perceptions of interpretations of perceptions" all the way down, possibly recursively so, spread across a complex network, and so on, what is it that would enable one person to be engineered to be inverted, so they could have an experience of a single pixel of red, that is like your grenness?</div><div><br></div><div>It seems to me if someone thinks there is a complex answer to that simple question, or even worse, thinking that it is so complex, humanity may never be able to comprehend it, they are thinking of things in entirely the wrong way. In my opinion, all we need to know, we already learned in elementary school. We just need to apply that simplicity to our knowledge, in our head, instead of to the stuff out there. That's all there is to it. As our elementary teacher taught us, it's as simple as: "THAT is redness."</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 6:52 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Apr 13, 2023, 5:29 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
On 13/04/2023 04:49, Giovanni Santostasi wrote:<br>
> I want to make a correction to Ben's statement that is Turtles all the <br>
> way down. The Turtles go deep but not all the way down. It stops in a <br>
> place similar to the way we derive set theory from the null set.<br>
<br>
Hm, that's interesting. I was thinking about information (in the brain <br>
specifically, and other similar machines), and that the informational <br>
turtles go round in big complex loops, where every piece of information <br>
is relative to other pieces of information, so in that sense there'd be <br>
no end.<br>
<br>
In the wider world, though, I'm sure you're right. I tried to read about <br>
information theory, conservation of information, etc., but it just <br>
bamboozles me. The idea of the total energy (and presumably, <br>
information) in the universe being zero does make sense, though (erm, <br>
provided there can be such a thing as 'anti-information'?).<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Perhaps that's entropy (uncertainty)? A coin flip, for example, has entropy of 1 bit.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">The Heisenberg uncertainty principle shows us the more information we learn about some properties of a system, the more we must unlearn (make uncertain) other aspects of that system.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Information is sometimes described by physicists as negative entropy. QM shows that learning information (acquiring negative entropy) requires an equal creation of more uncertainty (entropy). So in a way the conversation of information might be the deeper principle behind the second law of thermodynamics and the conservation of energy. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Jason </div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
extropy-chat mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</a><br>
</blockquote></div>