<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br><div>Interesting. Yes. I have dabbled a bit. And <a href="https://canonizer.com/topic/81-Mind-Experts/4-Steven-Lehar">Steven Lehar</a> learned much of what he knows about consciousness through detailed documentation of psychedelic trips. He wrote a book on it.</div><div><br></div><div>And yes, your brain can render any knowledge it wants into the <a href="https://canonizer.com/videos/consciousness?chapter=the+world+in+your+head&format=360">spirit bubble world in our head</a>, like being in two places at once, see stuff behind you, your knowledge of your spirit traveling through knowledge of solid walls, the ego knowledge of yourself ceasing to exist, (first person experiences no longer possible) becoming one one with your knowledge of the world.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 1:09 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">As a postscript to this I would say that if you are interested in consciousness and neuroscience, you should really, really try psychedelics. A curious mind that never tries them is falling far short of the perceptual knowledge you could have access to.<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">They are serious though and you should do them in a safe, clean, and pleasant setting--perhaps an old house with incandescent lights, dark wood floors, lots of throw pillows, with a strong and happy mindset, and probably an experienced tripper guru.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 2:54 PM Will Steinberg <<a href="mailto:steinberg.will@gmail.com" target="_blank">steinberg.will@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">I have experienced things in dreams I have not in real life, like being in two places at once. The flavors were nothing really new though.<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">One thing I noticed after doing a lot of psychedelics, especially DMT. When you smoke it in particular, the ascent of psychedelia is very fast. It starts as brighter colors, then becomes extremely high pattern recognition (visual part is most obvious) with subjective fractal hallucinations pouring off of the objectively present patterns (imagine grokking the fluid dynamics of a cloud, plus hallucinating mandelbrots at the edges.)</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Then, suddenly, the fractals coalesce into figures and scenes overlaid with more fractals, and then clear figures and scenes, without the typical psychedelia. Crisp edges. The patterns become the patterns of a story, instead or a shape. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">After doing this a lot I also started to notice being in this between-geometry-and-story state when I was in hypnagogia. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">From this personal experience I think that the geometry is essentially the building blocks of more clear perception. At some point in the trip there is so much information that it turns into a story instead of a relatively simpler geometric pattern. </div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 2:48 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><br><div>Very interesting.</div><div>Was there any qualities you had never experienced before? Or was it just flavors made of light qualities, and other remapping of qualities you were already familiar with?</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 12:30 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">Just strange things like sparkly pastries and layered milkshakes, those are some I remember. Used to lucid dream a lot so one time I remember I tried eating some salsa and I woke myself up and spit it onto my bed in the hypnagogic state. At the time I felt I was so close to actually bringing something back from the dream world, lol</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 17, 2023, 2:00 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><br><div>I'm jealous. I've never experienced taste and smell in dreams.</div><div>I want to know what "fanciful' is like so I can know the meaning of that term in that context.</div><div>I bet someday we'll know which of all our objective descriptions of stuff in the brain, is a description of that kind of subjective 'fanciful'.</div><div>And I'm looking forward to being able to say: "oh THAT is what that kind of fanciful taste is like."</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 11:21 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">Wtf I have all my senses in my dreams....<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">When I was a kid I used to try and eat in dreams specifically cuz the food was always so fanciful</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Apr 16, 2023, 5:23 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<br>
<div>On 16/04/2023 19:07, bill w wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">One
cannot sense without consciousness Jason</span><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:small"><font face="comic sans ms, sans-serif">Oh yes we can - dreams.
Visual, mostly, rarely auditory, never touch, smell or
taste (unless some chat member reports any of those. )
bill w </font></span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I can definitely report that my dreams sometimes incorporate sound
(playing a musical instrument) and touch (we won't go there). Don't
recall taste or smell, though. Proprioception as well, though, very
commonly (as in, almost always. Many of my dreams are about movement
- running, cycling, skating, flying, as well as less common and
physically impossible ways of moving - and I can feel the motion,
not just see it).<br>
<br>
The question of whether we are conscious while dreaming is an
interesting one, though. Lucid dreaming - are we really conscious
then? And I sometimes have what I'd call 'semi-lucid' dreams where I
can control events, or at least influence them, but am not as
conscious as in a lucid dream.<br>
<br>
Ben<br>
</div>
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