<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div>This is so frustrating. I'm asking a simple, elementary school level question. I have friends not practiced in theories of consciousness, who get this immediately. Yet everyone here (except Gordon?) just either changes the subject completely (to the unrelated topic of what is required for intelligence), or asks yet more questions, as you are doing here.</div><div><br></div><div></div><div>After I sent that first version, I realized it might have better revealed the issue to have stated it like this:</div><div>How is it that a bunch of abstract words, like 'red', floating around inside a chatbot's brain can end up with <img src="cid:ii_lgttsz522" alt="green_border.png" width="24" height="25"></div><div><br></div><div><div>Instead of answers, all I get are "It's turtles all the way down." Or infinitely recursive questions as answers, or "Let's completely ignore that 'hard'* question and change the subject to an 'easy'* question like what is required for something to be intelligent?"</div><div></div></div><div dir="ltr">The properties of things are observable or demonstratable physical facts about those things. I'm simply asking what are <img src="cid:ii_lgtua9w94" alt="red_border.png" width="24" height="25"> and <img src="cid:ii_lgtubffp5" alt="green_border.png" width="24" height="25"> properties of?<br></div><div>If they are properties of physical things, what are those physical things? (Even an 8 year old knows how to find out what color things are)</div><div>If they are properties of different functions, what functions? (How would you test for this?)</div><div>If they are properties of different relationships, what relationships? (How would you test for this?)<br></div><div>If they are properties of some spiritual realm, what/where is that? (How would you test for this?)</div><div>If they are properties of turtles all the way down, what is the difference between <img src="cid:ii_lgtua9w94" alt="red_border.png" width="24" height="25"> turtles all the way down and <img src="cid:ii_lgtubffp5" alt="green_border.png" width="24" height="25"> turtles all the way down? (How would you test for this?)</div><div>......</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>* Chalmers' classifications of what he incorrectly thinks is a 'hard problem' vs what is an 'easy problem.'<br></div><div>In reality, his so-called "hard problem" is the most trivially easy problem, one of the first things we learned in elementary school. It is simply: "What is <img src="cid:ii_lgtua9w94" alt="red_border.png" width="24" height="25"> a property of?"</div><div>Everyone making it too "hard" is the only problem.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 1:03 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 12:11 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><br><div>Hi Jason,</div><div>Why do you think a ChatBot can emagine <img src="cid:ii_lgtnq0bp1" alt="red_border.png" width="24" height="25">, when a congenitally blind person can't?</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>During training the AI's brain is built from scratch to interpret its sensory landscape (which takes the form of patterns within its environment). Some of those patterns relate to the descriptions, properties, and relations among colors as described by normally sighted people. Given that we know the AI can imagine shapes and scenes (an element of vision) how can you be so sure its brain did not develop other imaginative/sensory capacities related to vision, which might include color?</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>How is it that a bunch of abstract words, like 'red', floating around inside a chatbot's brain can end up with <img src="cid:ii_lgtnq0bp1" alt="red_border.png" width="24" height="25"> (unless magic happens here) .</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>How is it that a bunch of atomic ions, like 'calcium', floating around inside a primate's brain can end up with 🟥?</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div>Go ahead. Communicate this same information transfer this email achieves, using only text.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Communication depends on the capacities of a recipient's mind/brain. If you are a person with a vivid imagination or synesthesia, it is quite easy for me to communicate the experience of 🟥 to you.</div><div><br></div><div>Jason</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 10:58 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 12:44 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div>Hi Jason,</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 4:18 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div>Just some food for thought. I don't argue that it does or doesn't have this capacity, only that it isn't definitive to me either way.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>How is the difference between <img src="cid:ii_lgtmz2072" alt="red_border.png" width="24" height="25"> and "<b><font size="4">RED</font></b>" not absolutely definitive?</div></div></div></blockquote></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I can tell a person to "imagine a bright red firetruck." And despite no visual stimulus they could see 🚒 in their mind.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">If a person can do it, then perhaps an AI can as well. We know it can imagine and draw objects from textual descriptions as a Giovanni showed. It's not definitive (in my opinion) that it cannot imagine colors as well. Early models could imagine shapes and three dimensional scenes despite never being trained on images, so it's not absurd to think it has other imaginative capabilities.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Jason </div><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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