<div dir="ltr"><div>I really liked that video about the red strawberries. It's thought-provoking. I'm curious to get Brent's response. Maybe color is the wrong simple example to use for communicating about qualia. It worked well enough until we realized color perception is a subjective contextual process that did not evolve to favor reflecting (consensus) reality. Perceived color constancy is more important, that is, has been more adaptive for us. How about them apples... or strawberries.<br></div><div>To quote my late friend and rapper Sean Byrne:
<span class="gmail-x193iq5w gmail-xeuugli gmail-x13faqbe gmail-x1vvkbs gmail-x1xmvt09 gmail-x1lliihq gmail-x1s928wv gmail-xhkezso gmail-x1gmr53x gmail-x1cpjm7i gmail-x1fgarty gmail-x1943h6x gmail-xudqn12 gmail-x3x7a5m gmail-x6prxxf gmail-xvq8zen gmail-xo1l8bm gmail-xzsf02u" dir="auto"> "Nothing exists except for your perception, the pain of the past only serves as a lesson."</span></div><div><span class="gmail-x193iq5w gmail-xeuugli gmail-x13faqbe gmail-x1vvkbs gmail-x1xmvt09 gmail-x1lliihq gmail-x1s928wv gmail-xhkezso gmail-x1gmr53x gmail-x1cpjm7i gmail-x1fgarty gmail-x1943h6x gmail-xudqn12 gmail-x3x7a5m gmail-x6prxxf gmail-xvq8zen gmail-xo1l8bm gmail-xzsf02u" dir="auto">-Henry<br></span>
</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 7:00 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br><div>Hi Jason,</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 3:09 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div>as in say the strawberry is red, but it would answer the question: "What is redness like for you." differently.</div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I don't see why they would answer this question differently if everything got inverted, including all emotional associations. If you changed only the word, but left the emotional associations as they were, then you could perhaps get different descriptions.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I'm skipping a bunch of stuff that I think is less important, and focusing on what I think is most important, but if I skip over something important, don't let me brush over it.</div><div><br></div><div>Giovani, evidently you think even a person engineered to have red / green qualia inversion, you would consider them to be indistinguishable, and that the quality difference of the subjective knowledge wouldn't matter?</div><div><br></div><div>It sounds like Jason at least thinks the two would be qualitatively different, and this difference is important, if you are asking what his redness is like for each of them. Jason just has a problem with how we would know, or how he would report that. For the moment, can we just say we are God, for a bit. And we can know if the redness is now greenness, even though the person wouldn't know, since all of his memories and references have been remapped.</div><div>The prediction is the future, we will be able to read people's minds, and objectively observe whether it is Jason's redness, or Jason's greenness, via neural ponytails, or whatever.</div><div>The critically important part is we need to focus on only the important thing, the quality of the redness. Not what the person thinks that quality is called, whether he is lying or whatever. Let's only focus on the quality of the redness experiences. Would God say that quality has changed or not, regardless of what the person says.</div><div><br></div><div>So, again, if you engineered someone to be a qualia invert. God could honestly tell those two people that one's redness was like the other's grenness.</div><div>And even though they would function differently, when asked what is redness like for you, they would know, since God told them, that their redness was like the other's greenness, so despite them being otherwise identical, they were qualitatively different.</div><div><br></div><div>So, would you agree that the quality of their consciousness is dependent on what their redness is like, and if one redness quality is like the other's greenness, that would be important and objectively observable?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div> </div></div></div>
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