<div dir="ltr">Brent,<div>Let's not bring god into the conversation. When we do experiment we care about differences between groups or conditions. I already showed you the graph of the 2 overlapping distributions. This is how you do science. You look at the responses of a group to certain stimuli if you study color perception. You could show them green or red and see how they respond. Nobody thinks like you do about inverting colors, your greenness is my redness kind of talk, really I never read a scientific paper that discussed things in this way. It is a very alien way to think about these topics. Can you try to talk in a more scientific way?<br>I have EEG systems available tell me what experiment you would do that will bring some interesting insights to your search for redness. Try to write it a scientific research proposal, no quality, knowledge of, or qualia needs to be mentioned. Describe what is the hypothesis and the methodology of the experiment.<br><br><br><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 8:46 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>I really liked that video about the red strawberries. It's thought-provoking. I'm curious to get Brent's response. Maybe color is the wrong simple example to use for communicating about qualia. It worked well enough until we realized color perception is a subjective contextual process that did not evolve to favor reflecting (consensus) reality. Perceived color constancy is more important, that is, has been more adaptive for us. How about them apples... or strawberries.<br></div><div>To quote my late friend and rapper Sean Byrne:
<span dir="auto"> "Nothing exists except for your perception, the pain of the past only serves as a lesson."</span></div><div><span dir="auto">-Henry<br></span>
</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 7:00 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br><div>Hi Jason,</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 3:09 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div>as in say the strawberry is red, but it would answer the question: "What is redness like for you." differently.</div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I don't see why they would answer this question differently if everything got inverted, including all emotional associations. If you changed only the word, but left the emotional associations as they were, then you could perhaps get different descriptions.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I'm skipping a bunch of stuff that I think is less important, and focusing on what I think is most important, but if I skip over something important, don't let me brush over it.</div><div><br></div><div>Giovani, evidently you think even a person engineered to have red / green qualia inversion, you would consider them to be indistinguishable, and that the quality difference of the subjective knowledge wouldn't matter?</div><div><br></div><div>It sounds like Jason at least thinks the two would be qualitatively different, and this difference is important, if you are asking what his redness is like for each of them. Jason just has a problem with how we would know, or how he would report that. For the moment, can we just say we are God, for a bit. And we can know if the redness is now greenness, even though the person wouldn't know, since all of his memories and references have been remapped.</div><div>The prediction is the future, we will be able to read people's minds, and objectively observe whether it is Jason's redness, or Jason's greenness, via neural ponytails, or whatever.</div><div>The critically important part is we need to focus on only the important thing, the quality of the redness. Not what the person thinks that quality is called, whether he is lying or whatever. Let's only focus on the quality of the redness experiences. Would God say that quality has changed or not, regardless of what the person says.</div><div><br></div><div>So, again, if you engineered someone to be a qualia invert. God could honestly tell those two people that one's redness was like the other's grenness.</div><div>And even though they would function differently, when asked what is redness like for you, they would know, since God told them, that their redness was like the other's greenness, so despite them being otherwise identical, they were qualitatively different.</div><div><br></div><div>So, would you agree that the quality of their consciousness is dependent on what their redness is like, and if one redness quality is like the other's greenness, that would be important and objectively observable?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div> </div></div></div>
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