<div dir="ltr"><b> "the conformation of physical reality that produces the red quale, on the layer of physical reality that is responsible for qualia"</b><br><div>Do you mean what is responsible in terms of the physical process for the experience of qualia? <br>We could reformulate the question as what is essential for producing the experience of qualia? Do we need the particular components of this process that the brain specifically uses? <br>If the brain uses at a particular point of the process responsible for qualia, glutamate, is glutamate essential, or what glutamate does is what is essential and if we can reproduce the function of glutamate then actually glutamate per se is not essential?<br>I prefer to use a lot of words instead of a short, incomprehensible per se sentence. Why? Because my experience is that function comes first, even in communication. <br>Fixating on particular specific material components of the experience of qualia (or any other phenomenon) is useful up to a point. Zoology is useful in terms of making a catalog and classification of the existent living beings. But biology is more interesting than zoology (I know zoology is part of biology) because it is more about how life works (so again function) than a simple catalog. <br>I mentioned before the analogy of understanding flight. <br>Quite early on modern engineers and physicists working on the problem of artificial flight understood that feathers and flapping wings were not necessary for flight. It was what nature invented to solve this problem given the constraints it worked with. But we could abstract away what was "essential" about flight and it had nothing to do with feathers and flapping wings. <br><br>To me the insistence that there is some a " <b>layer of physical reality that is responsible for qualia"</b> seems to me a fallacy similar to somebody insisting that feathers are fundamental for flight. There is for sure some principle beyond the phenomenon of conscious experience but it is not due to the presence of feathers but rather the presence of a principle, a mechanism, a process, exactly like flight is due to the principles of aerodynamics. <br>Do I know this 100 %? No, but I can use induction and say this is how it always works out, so while anything is possible, it is very very unlikely that "feathers" is what is needed for the flight of consciousness either. <br><br>Giovanni <br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, May 1, 2023 at 3:07 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Thanks for the data point. If that is the case, I wish I could know, concisely and quantitatively, what everyone does think, and why, and I wish we could track this as we continue to talk, so we could know if any progress is being made. One way or another. I know I've learned a lot, and feel like I've progressed, from these conversations. And you can see that progress in the history of the camps as they have developed over the last 10 years.<div><div><br></div></div><div>Of all the ways you guys think about consciousness (other than just simplistic functionalism), which way of thinking about things do you think has the most consensus?</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, May 1, 2023 at 1:15 PM Gadersd via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div> I'm glad at least one person can understand what I've been trying to figure out how to say,since back in the 90s.</div><div>Coming up with the model of how qualia might work was the easy part. Learning how to communicate it to everyone is a gazillion times harder.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>I think you have “communicating” and “convincing” confused. I am confident that most members on the list understand what your theory is. The problem is that we just don’t find it convincing.<br><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On May 1, 2023, at 11:20 AM, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div dir="ltr"><br><div>Yay, Will's got it!!</div><div>Thanks Will. I'm glad at least one person can understand what I've been trying to figure out how to say,since back in the 90s.</div><div>Coming up with the model of how qualia might work was the easy part. Learning how to communicate it to everyone is a gazillion times harder.</div><div><br></div><div>So does that mean you would agree with a definition of consciousness to be something like "computationally bound elemental qualities?"</div><div><br></div><div>Could you concisely describe your model of consciousness, or the way you think about it?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, May 1, 2023 at 6:39 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div>It means, I think, "the conformation of physical reality that produces the red quale, on the layer of physical reality that is responsible for qualia"<br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, May 1, 2023, 5:09 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">I have a question:<br>
<br>
Can someone please explain, in simple terms, what the phrase "Elemental <br>
Redness" actually means?<br>
<br>
Preferably not Brent (sorry, Brent, but it's just that I never <br>
understand what you're saying, so an explanation from you would be <br>
useless to me. Unless, of course, you can drop the jargon for once and <br>
just use plain old english, but I think that's unlikely).<br>
<br>
The reason I ask is that it seems to mean different things to different <br>
people, and it doesn't mean anything to me.<br>
<br>
Ben<br>
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