<div dir="ltr">I think the problem of consciousness is there is similar to how Douglas Adams dealt with the quest for the meaning of "Life, the Universe, and Everything". How everything perfectly knows the answer is 42. When the scientists that built the AI that was supposed to answer this supposed deep question got this answer they got shocked because they aspected something deeper and more meaningful, but 42 is the correct answer to this stupid question. It just is. The real meaning is the right question and that is much more difficult to find. I don't think the right questions are really asked when philosophers focus on the incommunicability of subjective experiences, qualia, and explanatory gaps, basically, they get stupid answers because they are asking stupid questions. </div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, May 3, 2023 at 9:05 PM Giovanni Santostasi <<a href="mailto:gsantostasi@gmail.com">gsantostasi@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">But I thought you said that redness is a "a direct apprehension", and I say the color illusions show they are not. We are saying opposite things if you claim that qualia are direct apprehensions. <br>There is nothing direct about them. The illusion happens because the perception of redness is a complex phenomenon that can go wrong for many reasons. In a sense the color illusion is the "color inverter" that you proposed. The person still experiences the false color as red. Why? Because there is interpretation (and you claim qualia do not need interpretation) and the interpretation went badly wrong. <br>So no we are not saying the same thing. </div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, May 3, 2023 at 8:53 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><br><div>Hi Giovani,</div><div>I'm not understanding what you are saying here.</div><div>It sounds like you and I are saying the same thing, so I'm not seeing, or not understanding what, exactly, you are disagreeing with.</div><div>Am I not saying that illusions are examples of the mistakes that can happen, the same thing you are talking about?</div><div><br></div><div>And, this video is a summary of what the consensus camp is saying. But for Canonizer, what is far more important than the popular consensus, is where are the mistakes in the current consensus. Canonizer is specifically designed to enable people seeing problems in the consensus camp, so they can start a competing camp. And may the best camp, achieve the most consensus, as fast as possible. One of the most important goals of canonizer is to enable revolutionary ideas to change the popular consensus as fast as possible.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, May 3, 2023 at 8:45 PM Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Brent,<br>I click on the link you provided and immediately I see a still from the video that says "so it can be mistaken if not correctly interpreted". I gave you all the evidence in the world that this is exactly what happens with color illusions.<div>How does your model of color account for this if it is not due to an error in interpretation? <br>Please explain.<br>Giovanni </div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, May 3, 2023 at 7:34 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 8:31 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)">What is the label for a person who thinks that "brain excitation causes experience" is wrong and that 'brain excitation IS experience'? bill w</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 7:56 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
On 02/05/2023 02:42, Jason Resch wrote:<br>
> I don't follow why saying that "experience is" rather than "experience <br>
> is caused" escapes or answers the question of who is having the <br>
> experience.<br>
<br>
<br>
The 'who' is the neural pattern. This is the central point.<br>
<br>
I suppose you could say "experience is caused by the neural pattern, in <br>
the neural pattern", but that might be more confusing. To me at least, <br>
it's clearer to say the experience and the neural pattern are the same <br>
thing.<br>
<br>
The point is to eliminate the dualism implicit in the language used. <br>
It's not "my experience is caused by these neural patterns" (which <br>
implies the question "what am I? What is it that these patterns cause to <br>
have the experience?"), it's "I am these neural patterns, having this <br>
experience". </blockquote></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Thank you Ben. All the people that use<a href="https://canonizer.com/videos/consciousness?chapter=differentiating+reality+and+knowledge+of+reality&format=360&t=400" target="_blank"> terms that separate consciousness from physical reality</a> aren't much better than <a href="https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Theories-of-Consciousness/48-Substance-Dualism" target="_blank">dualists</a>, and non <a href="https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Theories-of-Consciousness/17-Mind-Brain-Identity" target="_blank">mind brain identity theorists</a>, in my current opinion.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">And no, that doesn't mean only patterns created by <br>
biological neurons will do. Anything capable of producing the same <br>
patterns will produce the same result: Me.<br>
<br>
Ben<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
extropy-chat mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
extropy-chat mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
extropy-chat mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
extropy-chat mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
extropy-chat mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>