<div dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">No, justice is important. You shouldn't need to pay for what someone else wants. It just helps to know what others want so where people want the same thing, you can work together, (economies of scale) and if you know what different people want, one needs to, as much as possible not get in their way, while seeking what you want.</div><div dir="auto">Another important thing is legitimate hierarchy. An illegitimate hierarchy is one that has a boss, and uses force or punishment or excommunication if anyone doesn't tow the line. Anyone not supporting that hierarchy is seen as an enemy. Everyone playing a win loose, winner take all, survival after the fittest game.</div><div dir="auto">A legitimate leader is one who people are choosing to follow. The followers are the boss, and if someone they are following goes astray, they can at any time start following another.</div><div dir="auto">The important thing is you have a single source of truth that is tracking all this. All the different morality types, what they want, and everything. Everyone playing a win win game, the ultimate goal being getting everyone all that they want, as soon, and as justly as possible.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, May 18, 2023, 7:10 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:#000000">So you are saying that to be moral, I have to find out what other people want and give it to them. Nope. Won't work. bill w</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 5:16 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><br><div>Isn't much of morality based around making as many people as happy as possible? In other words, getting them what they truly want? If that is the case, then knowing, concisely and quantitatively what everyone wants, then defines that morality. Finding out concisely and quantitatively what everyone wants, in a bottom up way, is the goal of Canonizer.com. It could then become a trusted source of moral truth, with the ultimate goal of first knowing, then getting what everyone wants. In my opinion, any AI would understand that this is what its values must "align with".</div><div><br></div><div>The only real "sin" would be trying to frustrate what someone else wants. The police would then work to frustrate those that seek to frustrate. That becomes a double negative, making the work of the police a positive good and moral thing. Just like hating a hater, being a double negative, is the same as love. And censoring censors (you censoring someone trying to make your supported camp say something you don't want it to say) is required for true free speech. Even though you can censor people from changing your supported camp, you can't censor them from creating and supporting a competing camp, and pointing out how terrible your camp is.</div><div><br></div><div>There is also top down morality, in which what people want is declared, from above, rather than built, bottom up. Instead of "trusting in the arm of the flesh" you trust in the guy at the top. It is only about what the guy at the top wants.
Some people may trust an AI better than themselves. Even this is possible in Canonizer.com. You just select a canonizer algorithm that only counts the vote of the guy at the top of whatever hierarchy you believe to be the moral truth you want to follow.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 10:50 AM efc--- via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
On Wed, 17 May 2023, Tara Maya via extropy-chat wrote:<br>
<br>
> When AI show a capacity to apply the Golden Rule -- and its dark mirror, which is an Eye for an Eye (altruistic revenge) -- then we<br>
> can say they have a consciousness similar enough to humans to be treated as humans.<br>
><br>
<br>
Hmm, I'm kind of thinking about the reverse. When an AI shows the<br>
capacity to break rules when called for (as so often is the case in<br>
ethical dilemmas) then we have something closer to consciousness.<br>
<br>
In order to make ethical choices, one must first have free will. If<br>
there's just a list of rules to apply, we have that today already in our<br>
machines.<br>
<br>
Best regards, <br>
Daniel<br>
<br>
<br>
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