<div dir="auto"><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Aug 24, 2023, 12:24 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">An important component of what a lot of people want out of immortality is not so much continuity as it is not-experiencing-discontinuity [And no, they're not the same thing]. <div><br></div><div>If I'm dying of cancer, and you do a brain scan, the resulting upload will remember being me, but /I'm/ still gonna experience a painful death. And no, killing me painlessly, or even instantaneously, during or in the immediate aftermath of the brain scan doesn't solve the problem either.</div><div><br></div><div>If "me" is ever on two substrates simultaneously, you may have copied me, but you haven't moved me, and a copy, by definition, isn't the me I want to be immortal.</div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Consider the following observation, which has 3 different explanations:</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">You walk into a closet. Five minutes later you walk out of the closet, apparently the same as you were when you entered. The question is, did you survive entering and exiting the closet?</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Could the answer depend on which of 3 scenarios happened during those five minutes, when in all 3 scenarios, the you who emerges is atom-for-atom identical?</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Scenario A) you walk into the closet, stand around for five minutes, then step out.</div><div dir="auto">Scenario B) you walk into the closet, are scanned, destroyed, then reassembled, and the reassembled form walks out.</div><div dir="auto">Scenario C) you walk into the closet, are scanned, and duplicated. Your original is then destroyed, and the copy walks out.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">In all 3 scenarios, the version of you who emerges is stipulated to be atom for atom the same, all versions are provided the same memories, all have the same behaviors and thought patterns and lives after leaving the closet. The question is, does it matter what happened in that closet during those five minutes? Does the history of the atoms have some bearing on whether it is really you, or are particles indistinguishable as QM suggests ( <a href="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identical_particles">https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identical_particles</a> ), where an electron is an electron is an electron, regardless of it's history. If so, then on what basis can we say it's not still you, when everything about the body that emerges is in principle, indistinguishable? What is attached to the you in scenario A that's not there in scenario B or scenario C?</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Jason </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Aug 24, 2023 at 9:31 AM Gregory Jones via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>...>...height of wishful thinking...cart, horse inversion, gun jumping, etc...</div><div><br></div>Billw, you will need to offer a bit of evidence to back up that strong statement. You offered us an opinion only. Granted it is one shared by most of humanity.<div><br></div><div>Regarding your question of asking ChatGPT to write in the style of a 12 yr old, it can. It does a better job of writing in 12 yr old than a smart 12 yr old. Not as good as a dumb one, but they are working that.</div><div><br></div><div>But do explain why you are so confident that uploading to immortality is not rational please. Note that I am not necessarily disagreeing. But I want to hear your reasoning.</div><div><br></div><div>spike</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Aug 24, 2023 at 8:20 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)">It seems that many of us want AIs to be people: conscious, with emotions and so forth. I suggest that this stems from wanting uploading to work so we can be immortal and have all the same lives we have now.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"comic sans ms",sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(0,0,0)">I suggest that this is the height of wishful thinking. And putting the cart WAY before the horse. Jumping the gun, etc. Not rational. bill w</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Aug 24, 2023 at 10:08 AM efc--- via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">I'm currently a materialist and find many good points in scientism, so if <br>
I have a box or a robot, that convinces me in every aspect that it is conscious<br>
by acting as if it was conscious, that's conscious for me.<br>
<br>
I do not subscribe to unique qualia or "redness" experiences, therefore, I <br>
cannot see a problem with the good old turing.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Daniel<br>
<br>
<br>
On Thu, 24 Aug 2023, Gregory Jones via extropy-chat wrote:<br>
<br>
> BillW's question regarding the instructor's task of distinguishing between a student and AI puts a final nail in the coffin of<br>
> Turing's test. Artificial intelligence is able create an illusion of consciousness so convincing, we are still debating if it really<br>
> is the real thing, all while failing to adequately define precisely what we mean by "real." <br>
> spike<br>
> <br>
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