<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div dir="ltr"></div><div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica"><br></font></div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"></div><blockquote type="cite"><font face="Helvetica">On Jan 5, 2024, at 8:49 AM, Jason Resch via extropy-chat <extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org> wrote:<br>…</font></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="auto"><div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><font face="Helvetica">On Thu, Jan 4, 2024, 9:12 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></font></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"></div><div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica">It’s metaphysical. </font></div><div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica"><br></font></div><div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica">…</font></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="auto"><div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><font face="Helvetica">A takeaway for me is that this suggests that we can promote peace and unity and the benefits noted in Bill‘s moral prescription post by promoting ego-loss/psychedelic experiences. </font></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><font face="Helvetica"><br></font></div><div dir="auto"><font face="Helvetica">Do most people have the experience of ego-loss in your experience? And does it happen reliably for those it happens to?</font></div><div dir="auto"><font face="Helvetica"><br></font></div><div dir="auto"><font face="Helvetica">Jason </font></div></div></div></blockquote><br></div><div dir="ltr"><p class="p1" style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"><span class="s1">It’s highly dose-dependent for most psychedelics, LSD being the prototype and most studied. DMT and ketamine for example will have a different slope relative to most other psychedelics in a graph of the relationship between dose and “depth” of a psychedelic experience and also ego-loss, but there is still causal relationship there. </span></p><p class="p2" style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal; min-height: 24px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"><span class="s1"></span><br></p><p class="p1" style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"><span class="s1">You can see the dose-dependent relationship in the charts in “Dose-response relationships of LSD-induced subjective experiences in humans“ (2023) in Neuropsychopharmocology at <a href="https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-023-01588-2"><span class="s2">https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-023-01588-2</span></a></span></p><p class="p2" style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal; min-height: 24px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"><span class="s1"></span><br></p><p class="p1" style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"><span class="s1">In particular, notice the charts for Dread of Ego Dissolution and Experience of Unity (full res image of the charts here <a href="https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-023-01588-2/figures/1"><span class="s2">https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-023-01588-2/figures/1</span></a>)</span></p><p class="p2" style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal; min-height: 24px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"><span class="s1"></span><br></p><p class="p1" style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"><span class="s1">I’d say a threshold dose of 100 micrograms needs to be passed to experience some degree of ego-loss. </span></p><p class="p2" style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal; min-height: 24px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"><span class="s1"></span><br></p><p class="p1" style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"><span class="s1">The<a href="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27378878/"> Ego-Dissolution Inventory</a>, which highly correlates with the “Unity” factor of the <a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5203697/">Mystical Experience Questionnaire</a>, is often used to examine the depth of ego loss that a participant has felt. This has been used to document the dose dependence I’ve described with psilocybin use as well. See “Psilocybin occasioned mystical-type experiences: immediate and persisting dose-related effects” (2011). <a href="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21674151/"><span class="s2">https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21674151/</span></a></span></p><p class="p2" style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal; min-height: 24px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"><span class="s1"></span><br></p><p class="p1" style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"><span class="s1">Here’s a nice quote that captures the connection between ego-loss and open individualism I think:</span></p><p class="p2" style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal; min-height: 24px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"><span class="s1"></span><br></p><p class="p1" style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"><span class="s1">“What is Ego Dissolution on Psychedelics Like?</span></p><p class="p1" style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"><span class="s1">According to our good friends at <a href="https://doubleblindmag.com/ego-death/">DoubleBlind,</a> the ego death or ego dissolution experience is described as being: “You are fully “<a href="https://doubleblindmag.com/what-does-it-mean-to-be-here-now/">in the moment</a>” and able to see things from a macroscopic, more objective perspective. You are no longer an individual isolated from life as it takes place around you, but rather feel interconnected with the universe and all its inhabitants, experiencing intense feelings of love, euphoria, and unity while the self is temporarily forgotten. This state of selflessness and subsequent feelings of connectivity with the universe are often referred to as “ego death.”” <a href="https://psychedelic.support/resources/ego-dissolution-during-psychedelic-experiences/"><span class="s2">https://psychedelic.support/resources/ego-dissolution-during-psychedelic-experiences/</span></a></span></p><p class="p2" style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal; min-height: 24px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"><span class="s1"></span><br></p><p class="p1" style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"><span class="s1">As this also came up in this thread, if anyone is interested, here is an article that argues that “Ego dissolution experiences reveal that the self-model plays an important binding function in cognitive processing, but the self does not exist.” <a href="https://academic.oup.com/nc/article/2017/1/nix016/3916730?login=false"><span class="s2">https://academic.oup.com/nc/article/2017/1/nix016/3916730?login=false</span></a></span></p><p class="p1" style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"><span class="s1">Provocative, I know. I haven’t read that one yet incidentally.</span></p><p class="p2" style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal; min-height: 24px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"><span class="s1"></span><br></p><p class="p1" style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"><span class="s1">Take care</span></p></div></div></body></html>