<div dir="auto"><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Jan 6, 2024, 3:10 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:#000000"><blockquote type="cite" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><pre><div>What principle in science says the experience this one life you are in is somehow different or special compared to all the trillions of other creatures who have lived
on this planet? jason</div><div>Easy- the content of my brain is unique - my memories,</div><div>mmy personality, even my face is distinguishable from any </div><div>a others on earth (identical twins are not identical). bill w</div><div dir="auto"></div></pre></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">It is, of course, trivially true that the content of your brain is unique and changes from moment to moment (thus constituting different "observer moments").</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">The trouble comes when we try to attach two different observer moments to the *same* experiencer.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">What mechanism do we choose to define such a linkage, and how do we justify it?</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Is it the continuity of some body? If so then what about mind uploading or transporters?</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Is it the continuity of some memories? If so then what about amnesia?</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Is it the continuity of some processes? If so then what about concussions?</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I think you can see where the trouble emerges.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Jason </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:#000000"><blockquote type="cite" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><pre><div dir="auto"><br></div></pre></blockquote></div></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Jan 6, 2024 at 2:03 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Jan 6, 2024, 2:31 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <<a href="mailto:extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div>
<br>
<div>On 06/01/2024 17:32, Jason Resch wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre><div dir="auto">I don't think you have yet understood the idea. It's not about grouping things.</div><div dir="auto">
</div><div dir="auto">It
all comes down to one question: what did it take for you to be born?
For you you to be alive now in this moment? What principle in science
says the experience this one life you are in is somehow different or
special compared to all the trillions of other creatures who have lived
on this planet?</div></pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
I don't understand the idea at all. It seems like complete nonsense.<br></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Perhaps this question will sharpen the issue at hand:</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">If you step into a star trek style transporter, but some error causes 5 identical copies of yourself to bean down, which one do you become?</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">A) none of them</div><div dir="auto">B) one of them</div><div dir="auto">C) all of them</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>
<br>
To answer the (two, not one) questions above:<br>
<br>
1) Innumerable things, that nobody can possibly completely answer
(the question is a bit broad, really)<br>
<br>
2) I am unique among the trillions of other creatures because
genetics and the many variables involved in my development ensure
this, but I'm not in any objective way 'special'. Subjectively, on
the other hand... Well, I'm the only 'Me' (so far), and that counts
as special, at least to me.<br>
<br>
But I don't see what this has to do with 'Open Individualism'. In
fact, these questions seem to be completely at odds with the idea
that 'I am everybody'. Everybody's different, so they can't be the
same.</div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">The "2024-you" is also different in many ways (different place, different atoms, different experience), from the "2023-you".</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">But we also, as a matter of general practice, believe/assume that despite these difference, they are experienced by the same person.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Personal identity theories attempt to answer the question of what, and how much, can change while retaining the identity of a person.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Empty individualism says any change at all, no matter how small, constitutes a new person. Closed individualism, says you can only change so much while being the same person. Open individualism says there's no limit to how much can change and yet still remain the same person -- that all variations of material composition of the body or psychological content of the experience, are mere contingencies.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div> I'm not everybody, I'm just me. </div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Are you the same person as when you step out of a teleporter or is that someone else? Are you all your clones in the many worlds or are those other people? Are you the same you when you reappear in a similar form in another future big bang of eternal inflation, or is that someone else? Are you the same person in other mirror images of earth that appear in infinite locations across the infinite space of our universe, what about the ones that have one less hair on their head, or a different color of eyes? How much can change across all the infinite instances in reality while still being you?</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>And the same is true for
everyone else. We are all alone, no matter how much we communicate
with each other, or how well we know someone else, we can never be
in their heads.<br>
<br>
Perhaps this concept of Open Individualism is a result of reluctance
to accept that? Similar to some religious ideas (particularly the
oxymoronic 'afterlife') being a result of reluctance to accept that
when you're dead, you're dead?<br></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">It comes from attempting to answer questions that arise in uncommon situations: split brains, fused brains, duplication machines, teleporters, cloning devices, healing devices. These normally don't come up, so it is easy to go all ones life without considering anything beyond the conventional view of personal identity, but the moment you venture into these uncommon situations, you will find conventional theories are no longer adequate.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Jason </div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
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